Something I noticed about 7x12 and a random comment about Castiel

[hells_half_acre]

So, I timelined 7x12 yesterday...


...and I noticed that Sam didn't specify AM or PM when he wrote 11:34 and summoned Chronos. Maybe it was in the words he said, because he didn't write down the date either...but still...I'd have thought he would have used the 24 hour clock.


Now, a random comment about Castiel in S6....

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who can see what a giant ass Castiel was to Dean. Everyone is always going on like Dean somehow betrayed Castiel and it's all Dean's fault and blah blah blah...but guys, Castiel=BAD FRIEND. You could argue that he doesn't know any better, because he's an angel, but that doesn't mean that Dean has no right to have his feelings hurt and react accordingly. After all, how else is Castiel supposed to learn that his actions were wrong, if not by Dean being honest.

Anyway, that's just been annoying me recently. I think it's Castiel's puppy-eyes that fool people. He's all "I am full of woe" and everyone is like "Oh noes!!" ..and meanwhile Dean is like "But he ignored me for a year when I was the most miserable that I have ever been in life, he then only came to see me when he needed something, and then he lied to me (by omission or otherwise) repeatedly...and then he wouldn't listen when I kept trying to warn him that his ideas were bad...and what? I'm supposed to just hug him and call it water under the bridge?!!" And Castiel is like "Yes, because you hurt my feelings by your reaction to me hurting your feelings...and you called me a baby twice...and even though that's really true, because I'm basically a five-year old, you should still apologize, and do whatever I say, because I helped you out a bunch of times in the past...before I treated you like shit...remember? Remember when I used to not treat you like shit? There we go. Now, let me open purgatory and then forgive me when I unleash unstoppable monsters onto the planet. And uh, don't pay attention to the fact that I broke your brother either and he'll probably slowly descend into madness. Let's just ignore that bit. Where's my hug?"


In other news: So far today, I have been punched in the thumb by an umbrella, I have sliced my finger open on a take-out container, and I have forgotten the naan. :( I'm really hoping my evening goes better.

I am cat/house-sitting for the next 10 days! Woo! Kitties! Thank goodness for allergy medication. 

Comments

[nwspaprtaxis.livejournal.com]

I agree with your assessment of Dean so hard. And honestly, I've thought Cas was an ass to Dean since about early Season 4 (ON THE HEAD OF A PIN cemented that theory - Really, Dean was *begging* not to go in the room with Alastair and CAS MADE HIM). It just bothers me how repeatedly Cas hurts Dean - even when Dean asks otherwise and he so rarely asks to begin with - and expects Dean's forgiveness. Dean's actually the most forgiving character on the show. Yes he gets angry, yes he gets deeply hurt, and he's HUMAN but ultimately he comes back around and I think Cas' betrayal just cut too deeply. I mean, Dean pulls rank on Cas exactly once and that was to basically tell him OPENING PURGATORY IS A FUCKING BAD IDEA. Also, I think the one thing that would make Dean cut ties is if anyone hurt Sam, and Cas pretty much did. I don't think Dean can be entirely blamed for betraying Cas - Dean's doing the best he can within his limitations... both emotional and in terms of what knowledge he has and he does give all of himself every time even when he knows it's going to gut (*points to OTHOAP*).

And sometimes there are limits and I think Dean hit his and realized that Cas is one hell of a crappy friend and that he's just DONE with being used: "But he ignored me for a year when I was the most miserable that I have ever been in life, he then only came to see me when he needed something, and then he lied to me (by omission or otherwise) repeatedly...and then he wouldn't listen when I kept trying to warn him that his ideas were bad...and what? I'm supposed to just hug him and call it water under the bridge?!!"

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly.

I always forget about the Sam thing, because it was the last thing in a whole chain of things...but, I also think it was the most important nail in that coffin.

[nwspaprtaxis.livejournal.com]

I always forget the Sam thing too because it wasn't really the last thing but Dean found out about it only at the very end and CAS LIED ABOUT IT. I think that was the one thing that Dean just can't bring himself to forgive - not to mention the poor boy's tired of being a pawn and being used.... he's the one who essentially has to clean up everyone's messes and he knew it when Cas mentioned Purgatory - and he begs Cas not to.... and now he's the one dealing with the fallout and saving the world again.

Dean I think is tired of being used and manipulated and Cas just crossed a line with him.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Right. And I wasn't even thinking of the "lying about getting Sam out of Hell" thing, I was thinking of the "breaking Sam's wall" thing. It's true, Castiel thought he could fix it, but that turned out to not be true (or while he had the ability, he was too high on power and rightousness to actually fulfill the promise). But even if he hadn't promised to fix him, hurting Sam really is the last thing you ever do in a friendship with Dean.

[nwspaprtaxis.livejournal.com]

I think Dean was hurt when he found out Sam was wandering around topside and Cas didn't tell him and then lied about it - he grieved for a year and it was one of the most miserable years of his life. And busting the Wall just made it worse. Cas' treatment of Sam was ultimately the last straw for Dean - hurting Sam really is the last thing you ever do in a friendship with Dean - I think Dean can take anything as long as he's the one hurt. But the minute it involves Sam, he's done. Also? Dean gave Cas so many chances since S4 that I think he's just too hurt to even try anymore.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[monicawoe.livejournal.com]

OMG the not specifying am or pm pissed me off so much, lol
(then again I much prefer 24 hour time!)

Castiel has been on my shit-list for a long time - but let me tell you the main reason. Beyond the whole letting Sam out of the panic room thing, blaming him for the apocalypse later on in season 5, and being a dick to Dean on several occasions, but here's my real problem during season 7:

this angel was brought back by God over and over and over- and THEN he goes and swallows down Purgatory declares himself God, slaughters his brethren left and right...and meanwhile Lucifer and Michael are down in the Cage forever.
If I was Lucifer- I'd be fucking furious!

Sorry for the language there ; )

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Very true. I always imagined that God brought him back again and again because he was crucial to something...and you could argue that he was crucial to ending the apocalypse, but why bring him back after that? To destroy Raphael? Why does God have it out for his arch-angels so bad? If I were the archangels, I'd be pissed too. :P

And if I were Adam, I'd also be pretty goddamn furious.

[monicawoe.livejournal.com]

oh man, don't even get me started on Adam, lol
I really, really wanted one of Sam's Hellucinations to involve Adam too

(and yes- totally agreed about the Archangels.)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I'd love it if Adam came back - as a hallucination or otherwise. He's the most tragic of the Winchesters.

[cookiemom6067.livejournal.com]

I didn't notice the lack of AM or PM, but I sure noticed the lack of a DATE. You're absolutely right.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I didn't notice the date until I noticed the time :P

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with your assessment of Castiel and of his actions and relationship with Dean. No matter what help Castiel was in the past it doesn't automatically excuse all wrongs.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yay! I'm not the only one! :)

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree with you more on Castiel. I never saw him as a friend to Dean. In season four he was actively planning on destroying Sam and deliberately undermining the brotherly relationship. He flipped sides in season five and then continually berated Dean and Sam for starting the Apocalypse, without ever mentioning his part in starting things. I never forgave him for letting Sam out of the panic room and for not informing Dean that the voice mail had been changed. Plus he took the amulet on his useless search for God.

You are so right that he abandoned Dean during the year that Sam was soulless. Fandom was all over Sam and Bobby for keeping Sam's resurrection from Dean, but Cas never got called out on it. He continually used Dean and Sam in his war and did little to nothing to help them. He actively discouraged Dean from saving Sam's soul, which was unforgivable. Then he destroyed Sam's only protection as a way to slow Dean down. He killed thousands of people after his Purgatory power trip. I don't see how Dean could ever forgive him and yet there seems to be a consensus that he deserves redemption and a good hug.

As you can see, I really don't like the character of Castiel.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. I mean, the only thing I can defend in there is his S4 motivations - in that I don't think Castiel realized that he was actively destroying the brothers and bringing about the apocalypse until OTHOAP...and then he was cowed into continuing, but at the very least rebellled at the end...but then he went and blamed it all on Sam, even though Sam was acting on the belief that he was preventing things, and Castiel WHO KNEW was the one that let Sam loose to make a mistake.

Anyway...yeah... I don't dislike Castiel, I just see him as a horribly flawed person who has a LOT of work to do in order to be redeemed at all.

I think part of the problem is that somehow a lot of the people I follow on tumblr are Misha/Castiel fans...I'm not sure how this happened. I need more tumblrs to follow, but the problem is that so many of them spoil like there's no tomorrow.

[majorshipper]

I always thought both of them were jerks to each other in S6. Cas buried his humanity and became a dick with wings, just like his siblings, and Dean used Cas and acted like a stubborn idiot sometimes. Neither of which is surprising. Cas has only learned about "humanity" from the Winchesters, and when he was observing them, Dean and Sam were going through their roughest time, ever. So not only did he learn some shitty ways to treat people you "care about" from them, he also had his ingrained angel dickishness. And, honestly, there's nobody to tell him what's right and wrong, especially in S6, because he again sees himself as better than Dean and no longer relates to Dean's cause. He really does act like a child, which isn't all that surprising. Also, he fucking hurt Sam. People have died from doing that. But, yeah. I mean, no relationship on this show is perfect by a long shot, but it is kinda interesting how a lot of people seem to set up Cas as the one who's long-suffering of Dean's problem, when, in reality, they're both pretty pissy to each other. As much as I love their...unique relationship, I don't want all Cas' wrongdoings to be glossed over. I read a pretty awesome 'verse that went AU after 6x21 where Cas became blind after loosing the souls, but Dean couldn't forgive him for, like, a year and a half, and even then, it wasn't instant or anything and it took Cas getting into some serious trouble before Dean would even see him. That's the kinda thing I want. I do want redemption, because I can't help it, I like all the boys and I want them all happy and at least willing to talk to each other, but I don't want it easy.

Though, with Dean's emotional state, I can see it going either way, a) Dean's just too burnt out to hold a grudge and he just doesn't care anymore, and even what Cas did can't isn't enough to break him outta it (which is possible, but I hope by the time they bring him back Dean's over this funk), or b) Dean being furious and unwilling to forgive Cas. For a long time, at least.

I totally didn't know all the feelings I had on the subject 'till now. I guess I know why it always bugs me in fic/meta when it's all "CAS DIED FOR DEAN AND DEAN WAS AN ASS TO HIM SO DEAN NEEDS TO FUCKING APOLOGIZE ALREADY"

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly.

In Dean's words "It takes two to have...you know, hardcore sex" - but in this case, it takes two people to completely fuck up a friendship. And I think by the end of S5, Castiel WAS Dean's friend...and then he just systematically ruins it all by being an idiot.

And it's true, Dean comes out swinging as well - but I think a lot of people forget the line Dean has at some point (and I honestly forget the episode), where he basically says that he CRIED for Castiel to come visit him when Sam was gone, and Castiel never showed. And it pisses me off, because people are like "Dean only ever calls Castiel when he needs something!" But hello, when he tried to get Castiel to come down and hang out as a FRIEND, because Dean needed a FRIEND, Castiel didn't show up. Castiel only shows up because he needs the Staff of Moses.

And that's all to say: I completely agree. If there's redemption to be had, I want it to be hard fought...though, I CAN see Dean caving if he's just too damn tied, I'd at least like to see Castiel realize that he needs to make amends even after Dean 'forgives' him.

But yes, I blame the puppy-eyes, because I do not understand where people are coming from when they think Castiel did no wrong and Dean's the biggest ass in the universe...it actually makes me worry about the state of their relationships. :P

[majorshipper]

Yeah, I agree. S5 was about how everyone, good and bad, came together in the face of the end of the world. But it all kinda fell apart in S6.

Oh, I agree. Cas is really selective about his choices on when he comes. Though I think he was avoiding Dean because he couldn't handle Dean's questions and selfishly didn't want to deal with Dean's emotions, not when he was trying so hard to avoid any remnants of his own humanity. It was easier for him to cut ties. He can say it was because he was busy fighting his war, but I think it was because he was still cutting out all humanity and trying to hide his deal.

Well, you know what I think, it all boils down to how divisive Cas has made fandom; people usually hate him or love him. The ones who hate him have no opinion because they hate him, and the ones who love him will always defend him. And because a lot of Dean/Cas fans are primarily Cas!fans, their natural instinct is to defend Cas, so, that makes sense. I'm not saying that's the for sure reason, and I'm not saying everyone's like that (I'm a fan of Cas, but I love to seek out screwed up characters and analyze their screwed-up-ness and I also want what's best for the show > what's best for Cas/Casgirls, so I'm not the standard Cas fan), but it's an interesting thought.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I never saw Cas as a divisive character until this season...and then all of a sudden it was quite apparent he was. I always assumed it was because a lot of people started watching in S4, and just didn't realize that he was another supporting character who was subject to the same faults and ultimate fate as any other supporting character...but then, I have absolutely nothing to base that assumption on.

I like Cas - because I like Characters that are 3 dimensional. Cas tries to do good, but he's constantly messing it all up - from the apocalypse to friendship. I guess the problem is that the character himself seems unable to ever admit that he was wrong, and there are certain fans who then believe that he can do no wrong...or something...maybe they are just crazy.

What's best for the show > what's best for Cas. Personally, after writing him into my demented'verse, I realized how absolutely horrible it is for plot/tension to have such a powerful character in the story. I had to keep thinking of excuses for him not to be around, or for him not to act to his full potential. So, I've been prepared for quite some time for the show to either kill him off completely, or turn him human...but if they turn him human, he still can't suddenly be the third brother in the backseat of the car, because that would be equally as awkward.

Anway, yeah, I'll be interested to see how this all pans out. Personally, I'm the kind of person who is always sort of happy when fans who say "If they do X, I'm never watching again" actually stop watching - because then I don't have to put up with their stupid ideas of what's best for the show. :P

(Not that I don't have ideas about what's best for the show, but I'm at least mature enough to realize that just because the writers might have different ideas than me, doesn't mean that the writers are wrong...I always reserve judgement until something is completely over.)

[majorshipper]

I think it's because a lot of fandom instantly took him in as a main character rather than a recurring one. He was never meant to be permanent, and at first, I think everyone was okay with it. But as they developed him more and more, that, of course, is when people start picking sides. And the more people see of him, the more people find out about his character, the more they make up their mind. That's my take.

Yeah! I agree. I like complicated characters, but no matter how much I like someone, I can still see their flaws and how they're meant to fit into the story. Cas literally cannot be a permanent character. Just the facts of life. A part of me wants him to always be with the boys, an impenetrable trio, but I know their characters far too well to know it's not even possible. An end to his character is fitting, but I want it done right.

It's funny; because I'm clearly a fan of Cas, I have a lot of fans on my flist who are super Cas fangirls, to the point where one of them isn't watching anymore because he's not in it. I honestly don't care what they do or don't do with the show, but I don't want to get into a massive discussion(mainly 'cause I don't have the energy) about my feels on Cas vs. theirs, so I usually just stick to happier subjects.

I always reserve judgement until something is completely over.
I try to take that approach to life as much as possible. It's the only thing that makes sense(as well as avoiding making you look like an idiot XD).

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yes, very true. There's not point getting into debates with the super fangirls, because in the end, those arguments aren't actually about logic or reason. It's about people who want to have their cake and eat it too. I'd be very happy with a good send-off to the character.

I mean, even Bobby...at first I was fairly horrified that had killed him, and it's not like I don't want them to find a way to bring him back, I'll be happy if they do...it's just that I'd also be happy if he really was dead forever.

I try to take that approach to life as much as possible. It's the only thing that makes sense(as well as avoiding making you look like an idiot XD).

Indeed. It's why my Quick Reactions are always focused on the events of the episode and what I liked (the light topics) rather than me nitpicking every single detail and expounding on whether or not the writers have lost their way. :P

[majorshipper]

I love our discussions; they're always so good and insightful. I always think of something new and stuff. ♥

MTE on Bobby. His send-off was great, and, if he's dead, then I'm happy with it. If he comes back, then I'll be happy with that, too, though I'd only believe it if they did it well.

It's kinda wavered lately, but, if I write up a review for something, I try to stick with what I liked. There's always a million people talking about what they hate, so I like to stand out. And also reserve my judgments.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I just like people to have a good time, so I try to keep things positive and happy :)

Plus, you know, I only watch shows because they make me happy - so if they are making me miserable, there's something wrong, and I'll stop watching, rather than watch and then complain about it. :P

That being said, when I do truly loathe an episode, I admit it. For instance, I hate Swap Meat from S5. But, usually I leave it at that. "I really don't like Swap Meat", pretty much sums it up. There's no need to go on and on about it.

I enjoy our discussions too! :)

[ramblin_rosie]

where he basically says that he CRIED for Castiel to come visit him when Sam was gone, and Castiel never showed
I don't remember that part--though to be fair, I didn't watch every ep last season--but I do remember Dean blowing up at Cas (justly, IMO) over the fact that Cas wouldn't come to try to help Dean figure out what was wrong with Sam but showed up in a heartbeat when Dean thought he had a line on Gabriel's horn. Dean's reactions might have been harsh, largely because Dean's reactions to that sort of thing almost always are harsh, but Cas definitely bears a great deal of blame.
And the thing is, I think Cas knew deep down that what he was doing was wrong and that Dean would call him on it. He could rationalize like crazy as long as he wasn't around Dean, beg God for a sign while conveniently ignoring the fact that Dean had just practically quoted 1 Corinthians to him. It reminds my of my former youth pastor's daughter who would act up in church and studiously avoid making eye contact with him while he was on the platform because she knew he'd call her down with a look. (Seriously, Sam's response to "Look anywhere but at the camera"? *Exactly* what she used to do.)
So yeah. Agreed.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree completely - a lot of Castiel's avoidance of Dean was the fact that he KNEW he was doing something wrong.

I wish I could remember what episode that was now where Dean talks about The Year That Wasn't and how Castiel didn't answer his prayers...maybe I'll try to find it....

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...maybe I'm on drugs. I skimmed the transcripts of four Cas episodes and couldn't find the line. I swear it's out there somewhere, but the mind does play tricks sometimes... still doesn't change the fact that Cas was a bad friend.

[ramblin_rosie]

Might it have been "Man Who Would Be King"? Thinking back, I do have a niggling memory of Dean saying something like that during the confrontation scene.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I skimmed the transcript on that one, but maybe I missed it. Oh well, there was one other person who vaguely remembered the line too - so it's out there SOMEWHERE. :P

[liliaeth]

You're not the only one.

I mean, I realize that Cas had a hard time, but Dean did offer to help, it's not his fault that Cas chose not to take that help and decided to lie to him about Crowley instead.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Exactly! :)

Sigh...

[mekina.livejournal.com]

I can definitely see how crappy Castiel was to Dean and Sam as well. Plus, I LOATHE Castiel. Not happy about him coming back at all, and if Dean forgives him, I will scream. Loudly.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

It will definitely be interesting to see how it all plays out. It's funny, because I think Cas-fans firmly believe that EVERYBODY LOVES Cas...or, at least, they carry on as if they do. I guess it just goes to prove that the show really can't please everyone. I'm sure that whatever happens, it'll make for an interesting story - but I too hope that Dean doesn't just forgive Castiel.

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much how I felt about it.  The two things that Dean has had the hardest time forgiving Sam for were that Sam abandoned him when he left for college and that he chose a demon over Dean.  Here's Cas doing the same thing - abandoning Dean in his grief and choosing Crowley over Dean.  On top of that, he did the Unforgivable and hurt Sam both with the souless rescue and then knocking down the wall.  He also put Lisa and Ben in danger.  I  don't think Dean got to be friends with Cas until they were fighting the same battle and Cas was becoming more human.  Cas still had that basic obnoxious angel nature but it was tempered.  Once he got powered up again, he seemed to lose whatever humanity he had gained.  He wasn't really the same Cas that Dean was friends with.  He'd gone back to the whole "I got you out of hell and I'll dump you back" attitude.  Maybe this reflects that I only found Cas likeable when his grace was going.  

Dean was harsh with Cas but unsurprisingly he was with everyone.  That's one of Dean's first lines of emotional defense to begin with.  He tried to make a go of it with Lisa and Ben and he formed a relationship with them even in the midst of grief.  They were the only ones there for him during one of the worst times in his life.  Once Sam showed up, that was effectively crushed, he met the snarky, nasty Campbell's, and he had to deal with souless Sam, not known for being warm and fuzzy.  He got turned into a vampire and died again to go find Death. Cas treated Dean like he was just some contact with info.  And that's before Dean found out how off the rails Cas had gone.  How could anyone be expected to be anything but harsh in that situation? 

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

My favourite Castiel was also "Falling Castiel"...and I think you're right, that Dean really only started to like Castiel as a friend when Castiel was more human. And that's something that Castiel lost when he went fully to war with Raphael and made the deal. I think Castiel also had to act superior to Dean in order to make himself believe that he knew what was best and Dean didn't.

And yes, Dean is harsh with everyone. I don't think he was more harsh with Castiel than he is with Sam or Bobby, or anyone... the difference is that for some reasons cas-fans seem to coddle Castiel more, and suddenly Dean's being made out to be a villain, when really, he's just Dean. Dean's always been flawed and harsh... it's not like it was an exceptionally cruel behaviour reserved only for Castiel. :P

Anyway, yes. Agreed.

[khek.livejournal.com]

Obviously, you're not the only one, but I'll just add my voice to the chorus.

If Castiel was Dean's friend, he would have contacted him during the year Sam was soulless. That he didn't means that he either didn't think it was important, he didn't feel like it, or he knew he was guilty of raising Sam wrong and didn't want to tell Dean. None of those are the actions of a friend. (And I also remember a scene where Dean said he begged for Castiel to come down during that year, but I don't remember which episode.) Dean was miserable, grieving and alone. Even though Lisa and Ben were there, they had no way of helping with anything from the past. They were a cozy blanket when he was laying on top of a bed of nails, with a fire underneath. Castiel could have helped with the healing, instead he spent that year making a deal with the devil, making enemies in heaven, and ignoring his supposed friend. And he didn't change anything after that year, he only made things worse.

Right from the beginning, Castiel was powerful and had his own agenda. I think he did learn some humanity from Dean and from Sam, but he obviously didn't understand it completely. Dean has stated over and over that the most important thing in their lives is family. And Castiel still hurts Sam and doesn't seem to understand that it was wrong.

I'll be very angry if they bring back Castiel and make him the wronged party. He needs to do some major groveling for forgiveness, and I don't think that he deserves it.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

(And I also remember a scene where Dean said he begged for Castiel to come down during that year, but I don't remember which episode.)

Oh good, I'm not the only one. I was beginning to think I had gone insane.

I agree with everything, of course. I think Castiel learned just enough humanity to be the equivalent of a five-year old, as Dean so often tries to express. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. I definitely don't want Castiel to be the wronged party, that's for sure. I'd be fine if Dean still was sentimental and WANTED to have a friendship with Castiel, but in my opinion, Dean doesn't need to apologize for anything. :P

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I love Castiel. And I love the Dean and Castiel friendship almost as much as the Sam and Dean brotherly relationship, but Cas did wrong. It was written that he did wrong.

Dean has always been the moral compass of the show, even back when Sam was more sensitive and open to possibilities. Cas knew he was doing wrong - granted not just HOW wrong - and avoiding telling Dean because he knew it was wrong.

I don't think Cas meant to hurt Dean the way he did, just like I don't think Sam meant to hurt Dean either. Both Sam and Cas sometimes get lost in a means to an end, where Dean is concerned with the how they get there. Different points of view.

I'm really hoping the redeem Cas and the reaffirm that Dean was right to be angry.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Very well said. I can't even add anything.

[franztastisch]

You totally know I'm with you on the Cas thing. I mean, I do love Cas. But he behaved very poorly towards Dean (I'm not even mentioning Sam here because HELLO.)

So yes. This was a comment...

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the comment ;)

I'm glad I'm not as alone as I felt in this!

[juppschmitz.livejournal.com]

Hi! I've never visited your lj before (how did I miss it?), so you don't know me yet.

I really liked your ideas about Castiel, even if I don't agree with everything. (I mean, I've liked the character from the get-go. But more as a person who is there for Dean and his relationship/dynamics with Dean than, you know, the actor Misha Collins.)

The only scene I can remember that's like what you were saying about Dean crying for Castiel is in When The Levee Breaks, when Dean's out in Bobby's yard. He says, Well, it's about time. I've been screaming myself hoarse out here for about two and a half hours now. I don't recall a scene like that in season 6. On the contrary, when Dean prays for Castiel in The Third Man it seemed to me like it was actually the first time he'd tried it since Sam went to hell.

And Castiel, I think, did care about Dean in that year. He nearly went and talked to him about his problems in heaven but then decided he didn't want to burden Dean with that. Wrong call, as it turned out. But then, like you pointed out, Castiel is basically a five-year-old where experience in making his own decisions and thinking for himself is concerned.

I'd be fine if Dean still was sentimental and WANTED to have a friendship with Castiel, but in my opinion, Dean doesn't need to apologize for anything.

I agree, and I didn't get the impression that Castiel feels Dean owes him an apology. Just before they opened purgatory, Castiel says, I'm ashamed. I really overreached and I'm gonna find some way to redeem myself to you.

Plus, I agree that Dean must be one of the most forgiving people ever. In The Man Who Would Be King he says you are like a brother to me. And if that isn't one of the biggest evidences of trust and love from Dean's side, then I don't know. And, yeah, he did forgive Sam for letting him down when he needed him most. It took a while but it happened.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hi! I've never visited your lj before (how did I miss it?), so you don't know me yet.

Hello! Nice to meet you! Welcome! I'm easy to miss, don't feel bad...I just sit in my corner and do weird things like timeline, keep track of clothes, and write Harry Potter crossover fic...occasionally, I vent opinions on things. :P

I've liked the character from the get-go. But more as a person who is there for Dean and his relationship/dynamics with Dean than, you know, the actor Misha Collins.

I'm the same way. I always thought it was good for Dean to have a friend who wasn't family/human.

I don't recall a scene like that in season 6. On the contrary, when Dean prays for Castiel in The Third Man it seemed to me like it was actually the first time he'd tried it since Sam went to hell.

Ugh, I know! It's driving me batty, because I could have sworn there was a line somewhere (later on maybe?) where he mentions Castiel not coming when he called during that year...but maybe I've lost my mind, because you are right about The Third Man.

And Castiel, I think, did care about Dean in that year. He nearly went and talked to him about his problems in heaven but then decided he didn't want to burden Dean with that.

Yes, my point wasn't that Castiel didn't care about Dean, it was more that he didn't SHOW Dean that he cared. Castiel can care all he wants, but it doesn't mean much if Dean has no evidence of it. Basically, I meant that I understood why Dean's feelings were so hurt. Castiel doesn't know any better of course, which is I'm sure why Dean forgave/will forgive him.

I agree, and I didn't get the impression that Castiel feels Dean owes him an apology.

No, I don't think so either. Castiel knows he did something wrong, and he knows he owes Dean an apology...and he tries to give him that apology. What I was complaining about was all the Cas-girls who think that Dean owes Castiel an apology (or seem to think that)...I do this occasionally, where I basically react to people's reactions rather than the show itself. I think the WRITERS have it correct, but some of the fans don't.

I think Dean will forgive Cas (if he hasn't already), he knows Castiel very well - and he KNOWS the reasons Castiel made the mistakes that he made, and he knows that Castiel genuinely regrets everything that happened now. Dean is hurt, so he'll probably nurse that hurt for a long while, because that's what Dean does (and there's nothing wrong with that), but deep down, I think he and Cas remain friends.

[juppschmitz.livejournal.com]

I think Dean will forgive Cas (if he hasn't already), he knows Castiel very well - and he KNOWS the reasons Castiel made the mistakes that he made, and he knows that Castiel genuinely regrets everything that happened now. Dean is hurt, so he'll probably nurse that hurt for a long while, because that's what Dean does (and there's nothing wrong with that), but deep down, I think he and Cas remain friends.

Amen to that!!

Personally, I'm the kind of person who is always sort of happy when fans who say "If they do X, I'm never watching again" actually stop watching - because then I don't have to put up with their stupid ideas of what's best for the show. :P

And Amen to that as well!! For me the only thing the writers could do for me to stop watching would be if they wrote Dean out of the show... XD

And let me just say that I'm so glad I stumbled onto this page because it's actually the first time that I came across a discussion about this topic. Not that I don't love all the other discussions but this particular aspect (Dean losing Castiel and the circumstances that led to it and what came of it so far) hasn't been discussed much (at least not on the ljs I usually hang out at.) So finding this was like a hot bubble bath to me. Or a box of chocolates. Or a nice red wine. :)

Also, your timeline? And your clothes-spotting? I love it to bits!! It never occured to me to focus on the clothes other than how good a particular rig-out looks in a particular lighting... So now I have a new focus for re-watching. Spot that henley!! Yay!!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

And let me just say that I'm so glad I stumbled onto this page because it's actually the first time that I came across a discussion about this topic. Not that I don't love all the other discussions but this particular aspect (Dean losing Castiel and the circumstances that led to it and what came of it so far) hasn't been discussed much (at least not on the ljs I usually hang out at.) So finding this was like a hot bubble bath to me. Or a box of chocolates. Or a nice red wine. :)

Oooo, I feel decadent.

I discuss the topic a bit in my "rewatch s6" tagged posts, but that's on a per-episode basis. I think this is the only time I discuss it as it's own topic.

Also, your timeline? And your clothes-spotting? I love it to bits!! It never occured to me to focus on the clothes other than how good a particular rig-out looks in a particular lighting... So now I have a new focus for re-watching. Spot that henley!! Yay!!

Haha, thanks! And hey, if you notice any mistakes, let me know. Or, if you have some super-power that can tell henleys apart, let me know. ;)

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Hey
Today is my "hells_half_acre-day", so you get me spamming you. Yay you.

(also, I'm avoiding writing my story, because my brain refuses to work right :-( )

I agree with your view on Cas and Dean. I've read all comments and your answers, so I won't repeat stuff too much.
Basically, I wanna tell you how much Cas-girls annoy me right now.
I mean, I liked Cas and I really found him a wonderfully hard-fated character.
But like you said earlier:
Personally, after writing him into my demented'verse, I realized how absolutely horrible it is for plot/tension to have such a powerful character in the story.


And if people in fandom cry now about his demise, then I can only say that those probably never faced that exact problem with writing a good story or episode.
I mean, I have trouble with including BOBBY in a fic, because it's too easy, but Cas? Something as powerful as an angel?

Yeah... sorry, kiddos, but if you don't see how BAD Cas is for the plot-writing, then ... I can't really care about your opinions, either.

And that's not at all referring to his character, his flaws or who should apologize to whom. It's just this icky, annoying complaining about the fact that their character died that gets on my nerves.

I want Cas gone (and I wouldn't have minded if Bobby had stayed...), but I certainly want a nice episode where a) he and Dean can work out some of their issues and b) Dean can blow up in his face because of his issues.

Let Dean be mean, unfair and wrong - I don't care. I would LOVE a real shouting-match, one screaming at the other what he did wrong and how they abandoned each other. It's just ... man, for one, mouthwatering, and two, would be a great way to resolve their problems. AND (as a minor bonus) sooth some fans because BOTH can be unreasonable and unfair towards the other.

but letting it stand as it is... It'll be like Bobby burying Rufus. There'll always be regret tainting the memory.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

And if people in fandom cry now about his demise, then I can only say that those probably never faced that exact problem with writing a good story or episode.

Yes, this is my thought as well. And I'm sure they'd come back and say "well maybe you just aren't a very good writer! A good writer would figure it out!" but I could always turn that around and say "a good writer knows when to sacrifice a character for the good of the story" :P

Let Dean be mean, unfair and wrong - I don't care. I would LOVE a real shouting-match, one screaming at the other what he did wrong and how they abandoned each other. It's just ... man, for one, mouthwatering, and two, would be a great way to resolve their problems. AND (as a minor bonus) sooth some fans because BOTH can be unreasonable and unfair towards the other.

I agree 100%

but letting it stand as it is... It'll be like Bobby burying Rufus. There'll always be regret tainting the memory.

I also agree with this - and that's a very good comparison, because that's exactly how it is at the moment.

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

And I'm sure they'd come back and say "well maybe you just aren't a very good writer! A good writer would figure it out!" but I could always turn that around and say "a good writer knows when to sacrifice a character for the good of the story" :P

This, and also: if you look closely, how many stories are there where Cas is simply human? I don't know, as I don't read Cas-centric stories (or Dean/Cas), but that's kinda what I'm getting when I browse the requests on the spnstoryfinders.

So who's avoiding the issue?

:-D

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Haha, good point! I don't even read descriptions of Dean/Cas fics, so I didn't know what the heck people were doing about that problem. :P

That being said, I wouldn't mind if they did make Cas human...but he still wouldn't fit into the story as a human (unless he was a bobby-like character who stayed in one place and was their research man)...because if he's just some guy sitting in the backseat, that's kind of weird.