hells_half_acre: (Sam Shirtless)
[personal profile] hells_half_acre
Caged Heat! This will be different knowing what we know now...

Random points before we get started:
1)The clothes were easy in this episode. They wore the same stuff the whole time. The only thing I had to keep track of was when they took off their jackets.
2)This is possible the most controversial episode of S6, at least when it comes to the mentions and possible depictions of sexual-violence. I will probably piss people off in my handling of this delicate topic, but *shrug*
.
Crowley on Crowley violence!!

"What should we use next speculum or something more exotic?"
-ewww...man, we really start early with that kind of talk in this episode.

"Iridium - rarer than hell. It would have been cheaper to drop a castle on you, but I think we can both agree, worth it."
-I've love to see a castle dropped on someone. 

"You're late"
"Traffic was a bitch"
"One Ruguru"
-How the heck do Ruguru's know anything? I guess there must be an Alpha Ruguru somewhere, sleeping with people to impregnate them or itself...actually, hey, I know you have like the Alpha=father, Eve=MotherOfAll thing...but how come there are no Alpha females? That'd be cool. Though, I guess then Sam and Dean would have to kill them and the show would be accused of being misogynistic again. Man, damned if you do, damned if you don't, eh?

"I'm sorry, I know you're speaking, I can see your lips moving, but I can't understand what you're saying because I don't speak little bitch."
- Dean's face here is so hurt...it's kind of hilarious.

"We've been going on these freaking Crowley runs and it's not getting us anywhere. I mean, the only thing that's really changed is that now I need a daily rape shower."
-So, some people were up in arms even at this line - because apparently it's not cool to joke about rape-showers. I sort of took this line as a different way to say "I feel dirty." But, as we know from last episode, Dean is well acquainted with rape showers - and my rule book says that if you have personal experience with something, then you are allowed to joke about it.  I sort of think there's this weird thing in society (and fandom) where saying the word "rape" is like saying "voldemort" or something...it's bizarre. Even fic warnings call it "non-con", um, ok...are you just trying to avoid getting flagged by some sort of weird rape-sensing-search-bot?  It's just odd, is all I'm saying. On a completely unrelated note: I'm really glad that people warn for non-con, but I wish they WOULD call it rape for those, let's say...13/14 year olds who are just getting into fandom and might not know what non-con means. I was once scarred for life.

"What now?"
"I think I know who you could ask."
"Evil bitch"
"Keep sweet talking me, this could go a whole new direction."
-Oh, it seems we're sticking with the rape theme for the time being. After this episode, Meg will have kissed both Winchesters and their angel friend against their will. Though, Cas is the only one to kiss her back and seemingly enjoy it. But, I'm just saying, Meg molested Sam and Dean back in S1...so, her threats aren't exactly idle.

"She's running."
"Am I?"
"Judging by the level of flop-sweat..."
-What's with Sam and observing how people sweat?

"Crowly would want to hunt down all the Lucifer-loyalists now that he's big man on campus."
"How would you know?"
"It's what I would do."
-This reminds me of Canadian history, because after the US declared independence, a  whole bunch of loyalists moved up to Canada and made life hell for the French-Canadians. I've noticed that French-Canadians can REALLY hold grudges....not to like, generalize or anything of course...it's not like I've met and interviewed every single French-Canadian.

"I apprenticed under Alistair in Hell just like your brother. So Dean, can I make Crowley do whatever I want?"
"Yeah, she can."
"It's a deal then. Hugs and puppies all around."
"You going to untie us?"
"Please, don't pretend you don't enjoy it."
-Again, we see how uncomfortable Dean is - how much Meg's words affect him here. Jensen does a superior job acting this, and I really think it's obvious that Dean is a former victim of sexual-assault.

"You going to kiss me?"
-Ibid. (That's fancy speak for "As above")

"You want to work with a demon again?"
"We're working with demons now. I'm doing this because I want to stop."
"She killed Ellen and Jo!"
"I know, but you can't look at this emotionally..."

-The thing is, I ALWAYS forget that Meg was the one that killed Ellen and Jo - geez, me. This is HORRIBLE. I can't believe Dean can even still function what with the amount of RAGE that must be inside of him. God. Now I hate her even more.

"No you listen! I don't care what your dealing with up in heaven, you owe me!"
"You may not care, but believe me-"
"I'm sorry do you think we're here to talk this out?"
"I can't just-"
"If you don't help us, I will hunt you down and kill you!"
"Will you, boy? How?"
-That last line of Misha's is so goddamn sexy...boy.

"I don't know yet, but I will look until I find out, and I don't sleep."
"You need help, Sam"
"I need your help."
-And this is true. Sam needs help, and Castiel SHOULD be the one to help him, seeing as he was the one that screwed Sam up in the first place. YES, it was a kindness to resurrect him, but he did it wrong. It's technically Cas' fault that Sam's a sociopath, and you can't just accidentally create something like that and then pretend like Sam's better off that way.

"You actually showed. Well Sam, I owe you a chicken dinner. What happened?"
"No big. This is what friends do for each other."
-I like that Sam lies to Dean here. Because seriously, Castiel SHOULD have just shown. I know people are all pitying Castiel and saying that Dean only ever called him when he needed him and then didn't help when Castiel needed him - but the truth of the matter is that Castiel wasn't coming to Dean unless Castiel needed Dean for something, and even then, Castiel wasn't telling Dean what his REAL problems were. Cas totally dug his own grave on this one, and I don't actually have very much sympathy for him. I have sympathy insofar as it's clear to me that Castiel now regrets his actions and realizes his mistakes, but that doesn't LESSEN his mistakes or actions nor does the simple act of regret atone for it all. As my mother says, "what do flowers have to do with it?"

"It's not working. Crowley is hidden from me."
- Is he though? IS HE?!

"What do you want?"
"We want to know where Crowley is."
"If I even knew, why would I tell you?"
"Because you're our grandfather."
"Samuel, I need to get my soul back."
"Who says you can get it back?"
"Me."
"Look, I'd like to help you, but I can't-"
"This is your grandson's soul!"
"I can't!"
- Now it's Dean trying to play the family card, and it's not going to work - because family isn't automatic, it's a choice, and Samuel has already made his choice.

"We're your blood. If you don't want to help us, I can't make you. I just want to know why. What is Crowley holding over you? You owe us that."
*shows picture*
"Mom?"
"He's going to get her back for me."
"Crowley's going to bring Mom back from the dead?"
"Don't tell me you don't want her back. You know what's the main difference between us? You know how to live without her."
"Look, I know how you feel."
"No, you don't, she's my daughter, and she's dead..."
- Yeah, and Sam is Dean's EVERYTHING. Also, I think this is a matter of saving the people who are already alive vs. the people who are long since dead. Mind you, I can see Samuel's point too - for him, Mary isn't long-since dead. He was resurrected and told that his girl was dead a year ago and that he could bring her back...so, yeah, fine, I can see where he's coming from, but even he has to see that this is a ethical quagmire of misery. 

"Trust me, don't go down that road."
"What are you saying?"
"I'm saying stop trying! It's going to go nowhere good. Samuel, I know we've had our differences, but I'm your grandson, and I'm telling you that this is wrong for so many reasons."
"You hypocrit."
"I'm asking you to learn from our mistakes! Doing this! This is how the badguy gets us every time, it's our achilles heel! Apparently it runs in the family! We will figure something else out, okay?"
"I'm sorry, Dean, I-"
"Fine! Bring her back, but what are you going to tell her? You going to tell her that you made a deal with a demon? That you wouldn't help out her sons?!"
"Alright, that's enough! Just get out."
- Dean's right on this one. Mary would kick her father's ass for the rest of eternity...or just turn around and stab him. That's what I'd do, and I don't even have kids.

"It's very complex"
"Mmhm"
"If the pizzaman truly loves this babysitter, why does he keep slapping her rear? Perhaps she's done something wrong."
- I love the way Misha delivers that last sentence. Methinks I see where Castiel's kinks are.

"You don't watch porn in a room full of dudes, and you don't talk about it. Just turn it off."
-Obviously, me and Dean haven't been to the same parties

"Why are you here, Samuel?"
"It's what Mary would want."
-Yeah, that was too easy.

"You saw him! He was more interested in killing us, then getting the job done. I just did all of us a favour."
-I like my original comment in my quick reaction post (which I'm sure I was drunk for) - "but first Sam totally takes out the demon that was eye-fucking Dean earlier...claiming that he was more interested in killing them than he was in killing Crowley....are you sure it wasn't just because he was eye-fucking your brother, Sam?"

"I'm not sure retrieving Sam's soul is wise."
"Wait, what? Why?"
"I want him to survive."
"What are you talking about?"
"Sam's soul has been locked in the cage with Michael and Lucifer for more than a year, and they have nothing to do but take their frustrations out on him. If we try to force that mutilated thing down Sam's gullet, we have no idea what will happen. It could be catastrophic."
"You mean he dies?"
"I mean he doesn't - paralysis, insanity, psychic pain so profound that he's locked inside himself for the rest of his life."
"But you're saying you don't know anything for sure, I mean, he could be fine."
"He could be, yes. But I sincerely doubt it."
"Well if he's not fine, then you fix him."
"Dean, I wouldn't know where to begin."
"Then you figure it out, Cas, come on! The guy's a freakin' replicant. He needs his soul. Look, we get it back, and if there are complications then we'll figure out a way to deal with those too."
"Of course....or we fail, and Sam suffers horrifically."
-This is a very interesting conversation. We know that Castiel considers Sam his friend - yet, is he really dissuading Dean because he fears for Sam's wellbeing, or is he trying to stop Dean from interfering with his and Crowley's plans? For that matter, if he IS truly concerned for Sam, is it not better to end Sam's eternal torment in hell for a non-eternal torment on earth? I mean, even if he were locked inside himself for the rest of his life, at least he wouldn't still be in the cage for eternity. I'm just sure I really see the logic here. Is having a sociopathic non-Sam while Sam's soul screams in the cage somehow better than caring for a hell-broken Sam? To me, as to Dean, this isn't and shouldn't be a question. It's like if your brother was a POW somewhere and you said "Oh, just leave him, I don't want to deal with the PTSD." It's absurd. But, perhaps Castiel doesn't understand how profoundly changed Sam is - how this is NOT Sam. Castiel doesn't have a soul, after all. He has his grace, but grace seems to only be power and not personality...actually, grace seems to deaden personality somehow. 

"This all seem a little too easy to you?"
"Way too easy."
-Agreed.

"What was that?"
"I learned that from the pizza man."
"A+ for you. I feel so...clean."
-That kiss WAS pretty hot, and I love that it makes Meg feel "clean" rather than the usual 'dirty' talk. :P 
-I also think this was a sign that Castiel was in a weird/bad place - it's like he's testing his limits almost. "Well, I crossed that line - I wonder if I can cross this next one...and hey, since I crossed those lines, I might as well cross this one too, I mean...it's just another line." We've all been there...usually it involves kissing.

*Samuel banishes Cas*
Dean: "Cas!"
-Dean is truly panicked and concerned for Cas here - which is sad to me, because Cas probably had planned to get banished.

"Sam?"
"Yeah?"
"I'm standing in pee!"
"Consider yourself lucky."
-Metaphor for their times in hell? Hahahaha oh, my sense of humour is dark.

"If you want forgiveness find a priest."
"I just wanted you to understand."
"Oh, I understand. You're talking about putting blood first - which is funny, because you sound just like my dad. The difference is he actually did!"
"I AM putting blood first."
"Oh, give me a break."
"Mary's my blood! My daughter! Don't come at me like I sold you out, Dean, you sold out your own mother. It was her or Sam, and you chose Sam, plain and simple."
-This is such weird logic on the part of Samuel. Don't get me wrong, I can see where he's coming from - Sam is currently a sociopath and Samuel has never known him as anything else, so why would Dean be more concerned with saving his brother than his mother? But the fact is that it's not like Dean was ever given a choice between Sam and Mary, like Samuel makes it sound. And again, we come right back to the problem of: Do you save the person who is (at least in some part) alive and standing next to you, or do you save the person who has been dead for 28 years?

"Oh that is such crap. You want to know what really happened? You chose a demon over your own grandsons!"
"See it how you want. I don't even know what Sam is, and you want me to protect him. And you? You're a stranger. No tell me, what exactly are you supposed to be to me?"
"I'll tell you who I am - I'm the guy you never want to see again, because I'll make it out of here, trust me. The next time you see me, I'll be there to kill you."
"Don't think there's going to be a next time."
"Whatever gets you through the night."
- I love this exchange. It reminds me of that great line in S5's Dark Side of the Moon, where one of the Hunters says "Do you really want Dean Winchester on your ass?" I love that you can visibly see that Dean scares the hell out of Samuel here - that Samuel realizes just how serious a threat Dean is making. It spells the end of any chance that they had of ever being "family"...all this talk about them being Samuel's grandson's is Dean giving Samuel is one way out. He does the same with Cas at the end of the season - "I can start (or keep) considering you family if you want me to, or you can walk away right now and make an enemy. It's your choice." Back in S3, Dean even told Bella that if she had just asked for help, they would have helped her. It's not hard to stay on Dean's good side, even if you royally screw up.
- I got off track there. What I meant to say was: I love Dean being a scary bad ass who will KILL YOU. 

It's nice to see an actress with a smaller cup-size. - Uh, yeah, so that's actually my entire notes on the Meg-is-naked-and-strapped-to-a-table scene.

"Enjoy."
"Alright, alright, Shawshank's a great flick, but let's skip the shower scene, huh?"
-Again, why does Dean's mind go to rape-scenes? Not hard to guess.

Holy crap, Soulless!Sam with a mouth full of his own blood is sexy - uh, yeah, so that's my notes there. As much as I love our Sammy, I also really really love seeing Soulless!Sam go all bad ass "I'm going to chew my own wrist open and then smile at you."

"What are you laughing at?"
"Dean Winchester's behind you."
-Another awesome line.

Ok, I will say that the first time I watched this episode, I did NOT think that Meg was being vaginally raped with the knife. Someone mentioned it afterward though, and now since the idea is in my head, I kind of do see it. However, I also see that if she were being vaginally raped, it would be much easier for Christian to do that while standing OVER her, not going under her as he does. What I thought he was doing the first time was carving up her back and letting gravity pull her insides out or something. Now, that doesn't make any sense with her being able to walk around afterward, so maybe the raping makes more sense. In any case, I will stand by my original statement of: I don't see anything wrong with this. Supernatural is a horror show - what is happening to meg is horrific. I do NOT think they are deliberately trying to make it sexy, but hey, she is naked, I'll give you that....when Sam pictured himself strapped to the torture table, he was still clothed...but the fact remains that the only two times we've SEEN the torture table is when girls are strapped to it - and they're naked. So, yeah, I can certainly see both sides of this argument, but for me personally, I don't have a problem with it. (Which is actually kind of odd, because I usually can't read/watch rape.)

*Crowley goes on about how Sam shouldn't want his soul back, because it is broken*
Meg: "Sam, I hate to say it, but he's right."
-You hate to say it? Really Meg? Do you like Sam's soul? I thought this comment was interesting. Meg herself is an interesting villain, because she has been around for so long, and has known the boys for so long...yet she only pops in and out. I also like her as a villain because, besides the initial subterfuge, she's always just been a straight-up villain. There's been no deals, alliances, or false friendships.

"Castiel, haven't seen you all season, are you the cavalry now?"
-I didn't write down this exchange, but I do like how listening to the dialogue now, it's all about how Crowley hasn't seen Cas and putting that distance between them.

How the heck did they fake that death though? They should go on the road! Crowley and Cas: Master Illusionists.

"Well, she's smart. I was going to kill her too. 'Course, I would have given you an hour with her first."
"Why would I want that?"
-This is another thing people get all upset over, because they see it as Dean somehow saying that he was going to give permission for Castiel to rape Meg (which would be raping Jimmy and Meg's vessel too) - but geez, it's a JOKE. (And please don't tell me that it's a tasteless joke, that is not the issue here). Dean said it because he wanted to get Castiel to give him that adorable "I don't understand you" face. He didn't say it because he meant it. It's funny, but sometimes I've noticed that fans (and I'm sure I'm guilty of this as well) seem to take everything every character says as the truth and completely serious...even when it's later revealed that they are lying, people are like "oh man, that was such a retcon, because before he said that..." It's not a ret-con if the character was LYING before, jesus people. So, yes, JOKE, JOKING, ONLY A TASTELESS JOKE! 

"Crowley was right, it's not going well for me upstairs."
"If there's anything we can do-"
"There isn't. I wish circumstances were different, much of the time, I'd rather be here."
"Cas, you've got a big steaming pile on your plate, there's no need for apologies. We're your friends."
"Listen, Sam, we'll find another way."
- And here we go: Dean offers to help, Cas refuses him. Dean is completely right later in the season when he tells Castiel that "I was here. Where were you?" when Castiel asks why Dean wasn't there for him before. Maybe I'm being way too harsh on him, but yeah, like I said, own-grave-digging skills - Castiel has them.

"You really want to help? Prison full of monsters, we can't just leave them - can't let them go."
-I guess those monsters were just moved to a different prison and continued to be tortured.

"You know, when angels and demons agree on something, call me nuts, but I pay attention."
"You say this now? After we practically died trying-"
"Exactly, we almost got ourselves killed. How many times do we risk our asses for this? Enough's enough. I don't think I want it back."
"Sam, you don't even know what you're saying."
"No, I'm saying something you don't like. You obviously care a lot, but I think I'm better off without it."
"You're wrong. You don't know how wrong you are."
"I'm not sure about that."
"Sam, don't walk away. Sam!"
-When I was a teenager, I used to constantly dramatically walk out of the room after saying something, and then realize that I didn't have anything to do in the new location, and I'd have to just stand there like an idiot until enough time had passed where I could re-enter the room with people in it and not feel stupid. I still felt stupid. My point is: Where is Sam even going?
-I can see both sides here. Sam DOESN'T know how wrong he is, because he's incapable of seeing the benefit of a soul, or acknowledging how messed up he is without one. On the other hand, just because he has no soul, does that mean that he's not a person? Soulless!Sam has to be destroyed in order for Sam to return...or, well, at least "absorbed" - what's the right decision on that?

Supernatural - so many debatable questions about morality.

Well, that was fun! Please try not to re-open the can of worms that was opened the first time we all watched this episode? As I recall, I ended up doing several posts about those issues and talked them to death. If you really feel the need to restate your opinion, go ahead, but I won't be engaging in any of the debate myself.

Date: 2011-10-18 10:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nwspaprtaxis.livejournal.com
I love you and your mood icon and the label that goes with it.... seriously that's how I feel right about now. Also? JP looks so wee and sick and pale there.... :)

Date: 2011-10-18 10:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nwspaprtaxis.livejournal.com
I agree with you about the use of the term "non-con" which is why I use "rape/non-con" in my own personal warning to protect those innocents. :)

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From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-10-18 10:30 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-10-18 10:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Haha, yeah, I didn't want to be TMI but "nauseated" didn't really cover it. :P

Date: 2011-10-18 10:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] claudiapriscus.livejournal.com
Not to open any cans full of wriggly things, but I don't think the charge was about whether or not it was a joke. Rape culture is rape culture, and one of the ways it perpetuates itself is by normalizing such things and then saying, 'jeez, I was just joking."

I think it would have (rightfully) caused debate and outrage by itself...but I think coming at the end of an already...problematic... episode didn't help matters at all.

Date: 2011-10-18 10:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oh, don't get me wrong - like I said, it was a tasteless joke, but I was speaking only to those people who actually DID think it was serious and not just a tasteless-joke/part-of-rape-culture, because there WERE people who thought so. I didn't mean that there was nothing at all wrong with the joke. It's TASTELESS.

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Date: 2011-10-18 10:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] missyjack.livejournal.com
it's so interesting, and disturbing, to re-view this episode knowing about Cas' collaboration with Crowley. I mean Cas plays a dangerous game, and when he gets sent away by Samuel using the sigil - well Dean and Sam could've died at Crowley's hands. And yes, Cas trying to deter Dean from getting Sam's soul back - I think Cas is actually just being pragmatic here and I think youa re on to something when you say he just doesn't udnerstand (or is denial) abotu how different Sma is. Continuing the theme of the season Cas is being rather "soulless" about it.

wrt the Meg torture - I'd say the seen is deliberately sexual. The episode is named after a 70s women's prison exploitaiton movie after all. And eprsonally I find the scene a real turn on! Also we do later on see Crowley torture a male monster whos at elast (from memory) half naked, and Criowley is explicit in his sexual delight of it.

it amuses me when fandom clutches its pearls at scenes like this, which are positively vanilla comapred to what you'll read on kinkmemes!

Date: 2011-10-18 10:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
it amuses me when fandom clutches its pearls at scenes like this, which are positively vanilla comapred to what you'll read on kinkmemes!

Haha very true. "No, it's ok for US to do it, just not the actual show..."

I'd say the scene is deliberately sexual. The episode is named after a 70s women's prison exploitaiton movie after all. And personally I find the scene a real turn on!

Good to know! Meg isn't the type of girl that I find attractive, so I was just like *shrug*. But you're right, we do get half-naked men too. I don't want to unleash angry women on myself by saying the wrong thing, but it kind of bugs me that fandom complains about any sort of sexualized violence towards a female character, and they don't seem to even notice that the series started out with Sam being molested in the very first episode. But yeah...rant for another day...

Continuing the theme of the season Cas is being rather "soulless" about it.

Very true. This first part of the season really is almost a battle between pragmatism and heart/emotion. No wonder Jensen was so run down by mid-season, he basically was solely responsible for holding up the emotional centre of the show.

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Date: 2011-10-18 11:21 pm (UTC)
alexseanchai: Ladybug, of Miraculous fame, with a rainbow Pride background (Default)
From: [personal profile] alexseanchai
Can we please not use the word 'lame' to describe things that have nothing to do with physical disability? Associating patheticness with people with physical disabilities is insulting and demeaning to same.

they see it as Dean somehow saying that he was going to give permission for Castiel to rape Meg

wtf. Stupid rape-culture-perpetuating joke is rape-culture-perpetuating and stupid but that doesn't make it intended to be taken seriously.

Date: 2011-10-18 11:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Can we please not use the word 'lame' to describe things that have nothing to do with physical disability? Associating patheticness with people with physical disabilities is insulting and demeaning to same.

Oops, sorry. It's hard to change ingrained habits. I'll go back and change it to a different word. You know, back when I was 13, I used to regularly call my friends fags and say things were gay when I just thought they were stupid - pretty damn horrible in retrospect, but I remember at the time I was all like "it's just a WORD, I don't actually MEAN IT LIKE THAT." Ugh. *shakes head at self and society*

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From: [personal profile] alexseanchai - Date: 2011-10-18 11:27 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-10-18 11:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 4422shini.livejournal.com
Huh... vaginally raped with the knife? I never even thought of that much less assumed it... BUT NOW I AM. DAMN IT!

:)

Date: 2011-10-18 11:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Hahaha, and the cycle continues! Now you will never NOT see it. :P

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From: [identity profile] 4422shini.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-10-18 11:32 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-10-18 11:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] monicawoe.livejournal.com
Holy crap, Soulless!Sam with a mouth full of his own blood is sexy - uh, yeah, so that's my notes there. As much as I love our Sammy, I also really really love seeing Soulless!Sam go all bad ass "I'm going to chew my own wrist open and then smile at you."
the worst thing aout this is I SO wanted this to be demon-blood related. I still mourn that we never saw soulless!Sam withpowers. Man would that have been epic.

Date: 2011-10-18 11:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oh man, that probably would have killed me with hot.

Date: 2011-10-19 12:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katsheswims.livejournal.com
"Cas totally dug his own grave on this one, and I don't actually have very much sympathy for him. I have sympathy insofar as it's clear to me that Castiel now regrets his actions and realizes his mistakes, but that doesn't LESSEN his mistakes or actions nor does the simple act of regret atone for it all."
This above is exactly how I feel about Cas too-I don't think Dean acted too harshly.

Thinking back the secrets he was keeping is probably why Cas was trying so hard to convince Dean that putting Sam's soul back would only hurt Sam (irrationally ignoring the torment Sam's soul, which IS Sam, was going through). Though to be fair no one else really mentioned that either-just that soulless Sam wasn't Sam and would do bad things.

Date: 2011-10-19 01:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Very true. It's odd how they chose to focus on how Soulless!Sam was doing bad things, rather then the fact that Sam very badly needed to be rescued.

Date: 2011-10-19 01:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] claudiapriscus.livejournal.com
That's the handwave I'm going with...the part that puzzles me is that no one really (not even Dean) seemed to go with the argument of "But Real!Sam is suffering! Eternally! Bad things! Who cares about the well being of his stupid body?"

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Date: 2011-10-19 12:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] percysowner.livejournal.com
-This is a very interesting conversation. We know that Castiel considers Sam his friend - yet, is he really dissuading Dean because he fears for Sam's wellbeing, or is he trying to stop Dean from interfering with his and Crowley's plans? For that matter, if he IS truly concerned for Sam, is it not better to end Sam's eternal torment in hell for a non-eternal torment on earth? I mean, even if he were locked inside himself for the rest of his life, at least he wouldn't still be in the cage for eternity. I'm just sure I really see the logic here. Is having a sociopathic non-Sam while Sam's soul screams in the cage somehow better than caring for a hell-broken Sam?

After we found out that Castiel raised Sam, I went on the assumption that he didn't want Sam's soul back in case Sam WASN'T left catatonic or a babbling idiot. I always assumed that Cas was afraid that Sam's soul would know that his body was rescued by an angel (and what other angel would bother to try) or that either Lucifer or Michael identified Castiel during the rescue. (Here I'm assuming that Castiel rescued Sam in his form the size of the Chrysler building and being pure energy, not in Jimmy Novack's vessel). I think Cas was trying to maintain his lie that he had nothing to do with rescuing Sam and Sam's soul had the ability to blow that lie out of the water.

Date: 2011-10-19 01:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Hmm, perhaps perhaps, that's an interesting way to look at it. Though, I still maintain that I don't know why Castiel just didn't tell Sam he raised him in the first place - I mean, I understand that Crowley might have told him not to say anything later, but that was later...and yes, in that case, if Sam's soul somehow remembered Castiel then the jig would be up. But...yeah...anyway, basically, I'm trying to say: Interesting theory.

I'm also assuming that angels go to hell without their vessels. :P

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Date: 2011-10-19 01:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dairygirl.livejournal.com
I always thought when Meg was agreeing with Crowley about Sam's soul, it was from knowledge that a soul in the possession of Lucifer would be severely damaged and why would Sam want it back?

As for the stupendous illusion effect when Cas burned Crowley, I second the nomination of Cas and Crowley: Illusionists. A story in the making?

I understand your use of terms: rape versus noncon. However, people could actually spell out is it nonconsensual sex. Noncon is only a shortened word. Would that be helpful?

Date: 2011-10-19 01:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Well, yes, if at 14, I had read "nonconsensual sex" I would have figured out what it meant, but the fact is that no one does that. Also, why spell all that out when they can just use four letters and call it rape?

I always thought when Meg was agreeing with Crowley about Sam's soul, it was from knowledge that a soul in the possession of Lucifer would be severely damaged and why would Sam want it back?

Yeah, it was just the way she worded it was a bit odd. But you're right, she was probably just commenting on the fact that it would not be in good shape. Like "I hate to say it Sam, but Lucifer has totaled your car."

Date: 2011-10-19 02:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mymuseandi.livejournal.com
Funnily enough this episode has never really raised any controversial issues for me at least. I like the episode, I think it moves the main story arc along, and also shows some character development.

Watching it with what we know later on about Cas is quite interesting. At the time of viewing all I can think about was how badass everyone was, and how Crowley just managed to die so easily and would he please come back? Now, I can see the elaborate scheming that must have taken place so well that the boys (and us) were none the wiser until the grand plan was revealed.

As for the torture scene with Meg, well, Ruby was tortured by Alaistair as well right? On the episode with Anna? Didn't that scene implied the same thing? Was anyone outraged then? I can't remember.

Date: 2011-10-19 02:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Was anyone outraged then? I can't remember.

I don't know. Maybe? Maybe they didn't care, because no one liked Ruby2.0 except me. :P

Now, I can see the elaborate scheming that must have taken place so well that the boys (and us) were none the wiser until the grand plan was revealed.

Yeah, this season is particularly fun to rewatch, I find, solely because of that. There's so many different layers and things going on behind the scenes.

I like the episode, I think it moves the main story arc along, and also shows some character development.

Same here! I think it's a pretty damn good episode, myself. I just remember there was quite a bit of a little shit-storm after it, because of all the interpreted rape. I don't personally have an issue with it at all, sexual-assault has been a theme of the show since the beginning, so I actually like it when they add to the theme, because I find it interesting. But hey, that's me. :P

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From: [identity profile] claudiapriscus.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-10-19 06:27 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-10-19 02:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mika-kun.livejournal.com
Out of context, I took the "give you an hour" thing to mean torture, not rape until you explained it. Was the implied rape more obvious in the show?

Date: 2011-10-19 02:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mika-kun.livejournal.com
Implied sanctioning of rape rather.

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Date: 2011-10-19 03:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vodou-blue.livejournal.com
You've made a lot of really excellent points, sweetie. I actually thought pretty much the same things when I watched it. I don't have the S6 bluray yet (gotta wait 'til xmas, darn it!) so this was an excellent refresher for me-- helps me keep S7 in perspective. Thanks!

Date: 2011-10-19 04:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thanks! I hope you have fun with the bluray once you get it! I liked the special bluray features :)

Date: 2011-10-19 08:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] franztastisch.livejournal.com
So hey! Two points:

1. I never thought that Meg was being raped in that scene either. Partially because that would be just TOO overt - I don't think it'd manage to get broadcast - but mostly cos Christian was not really in the right place to do so. And yeah, it's horrific, so it fits. Also (1b if you will) I think you're right about Dean (and Sam too though that becomes apparent later) being raped in Hell. And I don't get (and I really hope this doesn't sound callus, or demeaning or whatever) why people find that so shocking. Rape is a seriously horrible and fucked up thing to do to another person. Of course it would happen in Hell! It wouldn't be Hell otherwise! Yeah I guess Hell can be imagined otherwise, but if you really want to fuck someone up, you mess with their head and you mess with their body. But at the same time, that's the exact reason that IT IS NOT FUNNY. Re: spooning.

2. I love Meg as a bad guy and basically it's all highlighted in this ep. She's like the YED; she's cruel, creepy and badass. But most of all, she's completely unapologetic. And hello longest running reccuring female character! Seen and/or mentoned in S1, 2, 4, 5 and 6. I think the only other female character who comes close is Lisa (well, and Mary I guess but in a way she doesn't count cos they're flashbacks etc.)

Date: 2011-10-19 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
but mostly cos Christian was not really in the right place to do so.

Yeah, this is why I didn't see it as rape either. More likely, he was doing something to her back - maybe cutting close to the spine? There are a lot of nerve endings at the spine.

Of course it would happen in Hell! It wouldn't be Hell otherwise!

Exactly! First I was shocked that people were joking about it, then when 7.02 aired I was shocked that people were actually surprised! I mean, really? In my opinion it's the most horrible thing can do to a person, so of course it would be used as a method of torture/torment.

I love Meg as a bad guy and basically it's all highlighted in this ep. She's like the YED; she's cruel, creepy and badass. But most of all, she's completely unapologetic.

YES! this is why I like her too (well, actually, I hate her, but that's because I'm SUPPOSED to - which means I think she is a good villain.) And you're right - besides the Winchesters she's the longest running character on the show! I wonder if they will ever kill her...I wonder what her actual name is too, because Meg was just the name of her first vessel.

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Date: 2011-10-19 08:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marlowe78.livejournal.com
Since I gave my 2000 cents worth the last time, at the original watching, I'll just say:

YES! to calling rape what it is in fiction.

It's a harsh word, one that makes me flinch when I read it or hear it. You know the sing "Rape me" by ..I think it's Nirvana?
I hate that song! Apart from not having more lyrics than that, I hate the way it makes me feel.
I'm sure it was meant in a different context than actual sexual assault, but it's still a horrible line.
And if anyone writes about rape, they should have the balls to call it that. "Non-con" sounds to me like whitewashing something, sanctioning a horrible act. Rape is short and says it how it is.

Should I even go into the weird genre called "dub-con"? Yeah... no. It's not the place for the worms.


I don't dislike reading stories about the dealings with a rape. I actually like those - IF! done right. And no, a little hug certainly isn't done right. Seeing as in Austria, they just found out about that orphanage that used to abuse and use and rent-out the kids that were placed there and those women who dared to come forward are now close to sixty, some even older... we all should be aware that it's not something that you just "deal with". And if a story is able to get that right, especially the balance between "being a victim" and "having to be tough and manly"...well, it's just probably the sane part of my sick mind that revels in the possibility that people can overcome even that. Or at least live with it. Considering the amount of rape-victims over the world, I'd say that it's indeed amazing what the human mind and body can overcome.

Sorry...

So not the point :-(

So I'm getting some alibi-comments in:

I loved Dean being bad-ass towards Samuel. And I was a little disappointed that it was Sam, in the end, who shot him.

Next, the Castiel-issue.

Man, you are so right! Dean sure wasn't the over-best BFF, but Cas held his cards VERY close to his chest - as he must have, since he made a deal with Crowley way early.

I wonder, too, about why Cas let Sam-sans-soul just walk away. I thought that maybe getting Sam out was in some way due to Crowley. (who IS king of hell, or was that time). So Sam being soul-full would maybe know about the deal?

Date: 2011-10-19 10:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Indeed, dub-con is rape too. Mind you, I CAN read dub-con fics, depending how they are done. I can't read straight up 'non-con' fics at all. So, there is SOME distinction there, but I'm not sure it's one we should be making.

Anyway...

I was disappointed that Sam shot Samuel, mainly because I wanted a moment where Samuel realized that his grandsons were awesome and kind and he was a bastard for forsaking them - AND THEN I wanted him to die. But you know *shrug*.

I definitely think both Dean and Cas made mistakes in the friendship, but Cas blamed Dean for a lot of stuff that was actually completely Cas' fault. :P

See, I don't think Sam had time to read up on the latest news while in the cage. Although they often say that "the cage is in hell" - they also always talk about it as though it's a VERY separate place. Some demons didn't actually believe in Lucifer back in S3, and YED had to actively search out the door to the cage...if demons could just chat with the occupants of the cage, I'm pretty sure those things wouldn't have happened. Also, it's constantly been said that Sam (and Adam) are the ONLY source of entertainment for Michael and Lucifer while they are in the cage. So, again, that means there is absolutely no outside contact.

Plus, we know from 6x20 that Castiel got Sam out before he made the deal with Crowley. So, Sam being without soul really was just a screw up on Castiel's part.

All rather confusing.

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From: [identity profile] marlowe78.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-10-19 10:09 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-10-20 01:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] galwithglasses.livejournal.com

Hee, four-year-old me was a huge Captain Hook fangirl because he had that fancy hat, tall boots, and blazin' red coat. Then I realized he couldn't fly...I was so fickle....

Even though you didn't want to open a can of worms, the comments have been really thought provoking and pretty polite. This was the episode I realized something was way off with Cas. The whole porn thing, partly. I also thought it was really weird the way he seemed to think that just because Sam's soul was so scarred by the Cage that he should be left there for eternal torture...I guess I figured Sam's body had a finite lifetime but his soul had eternity with the Devil for company. At least, get him out of the cage and if it kills his body or makes him experience huge psychic pain, at least his soul would be able to go somewhere else at his death. Even 80 years locked in your mind would be preferable to unending suffering.

I couldn't even watch the Meg torture scene. To be that vulnerable, to me, is terrifying, with or without rape added into the mix. She was naked, tied down, and the potential for rape was huge. Some people would consider being stripped naked in front of a stranger a form of sexual assault by itself. I even felt wigged out for the actress. I swear this show makes me haul out emotional baggage I don't even realize I've got.

I wished they had come up with some other reason besides Mary for Samuel to have been working with Crowley. Were we supposed to figure her soul was somewhere horrible too? I loved Dean's final confrontation with him. He still gave Samuel a chance to come around but when Samuel denied real family ties, that was it. Samuel underestimated Dean all the way along. I really hated how the Campbells treated Dean.

And Sam biting his arm to get out of his cell...souless!Sam was such a hot mess.

Date: 2011-10-20 05:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
This was the episode I realized something was way off with Cas. The whole porn thing, partly. I also thought it was really weird the way he seemed to think that just because Sam's soul was so scarred by the Cage that he should be left there for eternal torture.

Yes, I completely agree. At the time, I didn't really realize that something was horribly off with Cas, but looking back on it now, I do. Even now, I'm still not sure whether him wanting to leave Sam's soul in the cage was OFF or just illogical. Because I completely agree with you - there's really no question that Sam should be saved. Just like you said, after X-number of years locked in his body, maybe it'll go to someplace better.

Some people would consider being stripped naked in front of a stranger a form of sexual assault by itself.

Yes, I agree.

Samuel underestimated Dean all the way along. I really hated how the Campbells treated Dean.

Me too.

Basically, this is all just me saying that I agree with you. :P Especially about how soulless!Sam was a hot mess. ;)

Date: 2011-10-23 03:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] khek.livejournal.com
The thing that creeped me out the most about this episode wasn't Meg's torture or Dean's tasteless comment--it was the way Samuel was so adamant that he wanted his baby girl back. He had a picture of teenage Mary, but realistically, if he'd brought her back, she would have been ten years older, with 1/3 her life lived without her father's presence, after ten years of marriage and a few years of being a protective parent herself. How could he even think that she would welcome coming back for him? And he never, ever mentioned his wife.

IDK, I just got a very skeevy vibe off that, and wondered how much of Samuel's life revolved around his teenage daughter. It didn't feel like a healthy fatherly desire to see his daughter.

Date: 2011-10-23 03:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Eww, yeah, I didn't look at it that way...but...yeah, I mean, why not mention the wife? And yeah, if she did come back, she'd be a REALLY pissed off 30-something mother of two dead/betrayed boys.

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From: [identity profile] galwithglasses.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-10-23 04:03 am (UTC) - Expand

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