hells_half_acre: (Sam strung-out)
[personal profile] hells_half_acre

So, we begin this episode with a blast from the past. I actually *SHOCK* missed the timestamp at the beginning of the episode. I think because the inside of my brain sounded like this:

"Oo, Coeur d'Alene, that's where Smoke Signals was set. I like that movie. *sings*John Wayne's Teeth, are they real? are they fake?*/end-singing* ...Wait, did they just say Lilith? What the?"

Anyway, when my friend asked if a four year jump backwards worked with the timeline, I said yes, because they were hunting Lilith in both S3 and S4. But now I'm actually doing the math...and....I don't think it works. Including the year with Lisa, this would be 2013...so 4 years ago would be spring 2009. Which...wait, yes, it works...I was right the first time. It'd be spring 2009, so they would be hunting Lilith to try to stop her breaking the seals. Without the year with Lisa (which is what they've been doing so far). It'd be 2012, which means that 4 years ago would have been 2008, which means they could be hunting Lilith to try to get her from coming after Sam (or killing Dean). Now, which is it?

Well, I'm actually going to go ahead and say that it makes WAY more sense for it to be 2009 (which makes my timelining heart happy.) Firstly, Dean is TORTURING without batting much of an eyelash about it. Hell, even Sam is on board (that's very S4+ Sammy.) Secondly...um, whatever, it just works with the first point ok? No, wait...secondly...was Dean keen to hunt Lilith in S3? When did they find out that Lilith held his contract?  God, I can't even remember right now. But I'm pretty sure in S3, Sam and Dean were still in the "avoid Lilith" strategy right up until No Rest For the Wicked, which was the first time they went after her...unless I'm crazy. Correct me if I'm wrong. But still, I think the ease with torturing (and Sam being fine with it) points to S4, rather than S3. Also, I don't think Sam had that coat in S3.

Okay...um, sorry...we were talking about the episode right?

So, string of murders happening just the same as before. We get the obligatory "why we aren't going after Dick Roman this week" phone call to Frank, and then it's ON TO THE CASE.



This is really cool, and it's what I was hoping they were going to do with Lucifer back in 7x02. (I only had to wait 13 episodes! Yay!) I loved how this episode was FINALLY from Sam's POV. We get to see just how much Lucifer interferes...or doesn't interfere with his daily life.

I also really think it's important that we keep in mind that this isn't ACTUALLY Lucifer. I know there are some theories out there that it is...but, in my opinion (and I believe the evidence supports me), Lucifer is just a fragment of Sam's subconscious. He's a hallucination in the traditional schizophrenic sense. We see it in the comments that he makes to Sam...he provides the police officers name...he says stuff like "do you even listen to yourself?" (Seriously, how often have we said that to ourselves? Be honest.)

I thought it was kind of funny, the way Sam wouldn't take the Hallucifer's word on the police officer's name...and then of course, we find out at the end just how much acknowledging Lucifer, even in the slightest, costs him.

The forked tongue = super creepy, btw.

Anyway, um, episode...oh, I should say - jumping back to the four-years previously bit - it was really cool to actually see the aftermath of an exorcism. The kind of cold dropping off at the ER, and telling the dude to walk in himself, and tell everyone he was mugged...oh Winchesters...your bedside manner is deplorable.

I'm jumping around all over the place here, forgive me...but you all know what happened in the episode, so I hardly need to recount it word for word!

I thought the dude who played Jeremy (was that his name?) Jeffrey was AWESOME. He had that hint of a southern accent that was great. He played his injuries really well, and he was both sympathetic when he needed to be, and completely psycho, without actually changing that much. Basically, I just thought he was great.

I should say that as soon as he got that dog, my friend said "Oh no...." and yeah...sad times.

But before canine murder, we get him sending Sam on a wild goose chase...and, I'm sorry, if that librarian was supposed to be chubby, someone needs to be spoken to.

Sam's hallucination in the library was SUPER DISTURBING. It reminded me of this gif that my friend used to use all the time in grad school. It had this stick figure on a computer, and it would head-desk until it was a bloody mess....and um, yeah, I got the sentiment behind it, but it was really disgusting, even though it was just a stick-figure.

But it IS just a wild goose chase...and this is when Sam realizes the discrepancies in the copy-cat killings...and this is when Sam realizes that Dean's in danger...and THIS is when Sam's so worried about Dean, that he talks to Lucifer, because it's just like talking to himself, right? Wrong.

I really thought this episode was very well put together. You see the kid in the warehouse, before you realize who he is. The promo spoiled me for Jeffrey's obsession with being possessed, but if I hadn't seen the promo, I'm sure that would have come as a surprise too....and it was really interesting to play with that idea....that there would be people out there would LIKE being possessed, who would FALL IN LOVE with an evil demon...who would talk about it like sex....

...and of course, I'm just going to pause here and point out the whole reaffirming of the possession=sex theme. 

I'm also going to pause here and point out that Lucifer made another rape joke with Sam, and I BETTER THE HELL NOT SEE PEOPLE LAUGHING AT IT. Ugh. When rapists make rape jokes, you are supposed to be horrified, not amused. I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this. That being said, it was a very well done rape reference..."The rapier wit, the wittier rape."...if you weren't paying close attention, it might have slipped you by. This is the kind of episode that I love doing a rewatch of, because you can just psycho-analyze Lucifer's lines to death. But, I do like the fact that they are not hiding the reality of what happened to Sam in the cage. 

Where was I? I'm really sorry for jumping around so much tonight, man...I blame the wine...and my brain. 

The demon possesses the kid...the kid does a great job too. Man, everyone was just kicking ass in this episode. Even the dog.

Dean shoots Jeffrey. My friend and I were trying to figure out the last time that they shot a human. The Benders? They must have killed a human since then...but then we couldn't even remember if they killed a human (non-possessed) even in The Benders! I mean, the cop shoots one of the dudes, but I can't remember what happens to the other ones...

And then we get back to the hotel, and Dean flops down on the bed...and you gotta love how quickly he falls asleep. I used to do exactly that when I was in grad school. My friend would phone me and say "I'll be there in ten minutes" and I'd say "cool" and hang-up, then I'd think "what am I going to do while I wait?" *belly flop on bed, fall asleep* Ten minutes later there'd be a knock on my door and I'd answer it with the bed-spread imprinted on my face. "Again!?!" my friend would say.

But, yeah...before Dean falls asleep, he describes a psychopath "that's what they do, act normal when they aren't..." (or words to that effect, only harsher)...and well, he just falls asleep...and Sam...poor Sam is stuck in a living hell created by his own broken mind, replete with Lucifer and fire...

Then we get the strangest promo I have ever seen. But, hey, no spoilers.

Okay, so I'm a super scatterbrain tonight, obviously. Let me know what I missed that you desperately want me to talk about....or argue timelines with me in the comments, please! :)

Do we really have to wait until March 9th?

Date: 2012-02-18 09:07 am (UTC)
majorshipper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] majorshipper
Jeffery, not Jeremy. :)

But, yeah. Pretty much everything you said. There's a reason it's instantly shot to my top ten. Every single person brought their a-game to this well-written story, and it was glorious. It's comparable to On The Head of a Pin, which, is pretty damn awesome.

Date: 2012-02-18 09:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oh man! Jeffery! Maybe I should go back in and correct it?

I feel so scatterbrained - I didn't even mention how awesome the title is, and how they references "the cone of shame" and the little puppy CARRIED IT!

And, yeah, I think this episode broke my brain with just having SO MUCH AWESOME.

Date: 2012-02-18 09:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cordelia-gray.livejournal.com
Such an amazing, intense episode! Love love love. SO CREEPY. And amazing work from everybody!

I'm not sure the last time Dean killed a non-possessed human, but Sam shot the psychic in - was it 7.05? The one with the town full of psychics.

Date: 2012-02-18 09:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oh right! Good memory! I'm sure Dean's killed a human more recently too...I mean, it's kind of an occupational hazard, especially when you have people dabbling in magic.

But yes! Such an amazing episode! i want to watch it again and talk about every single line...that's how good it was!

Date: 2012-02-18 09:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raloria.livejournal.com
It was a great eppy. I was hoping for more angst and an epic cliffhanger (which we kinda/sorta got) but all in all it was a solid hour.

The guy who played Jeffery was AWESOME. I really liked him as the innocent victim and then he had my skin crawling as the serial killer. And the wiccan gal, Nora...she looks so darned familiar! I'm trying to remember where I've seen her before. Super Wiki help me!!!!!

Mystery solved! She's Nicole Oliver! She played Kelly, Peter's girlfriend on Kung Fu: The Legend Continues!!!! OMG Sorry for the flailing, but I LOVED that show. Glad I figured that out...and thanks to TVRage.com for the info. ;)

Date: 2012-02-18 09:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Haha, SuperWiki usually doesn't have that sort of info anyway, does it?

I don't think I was disappointed at all by the episode. It was exactly what I wanted. Personally, I could have done without the evil cliffhanger, but then, I worry far too much about fictional characters for my own good. ;)

The guy who played Jeffrey not only got the emotions down, but he also got his character's physicality down with the injuries...there wasn't one part of his performance that I didn't find believable. (Well, except perhaps the part there he hears a noise and goes down an alley...but then again, we already knew that he was expecting the Winchesters to show up.)

Date: 2012-02-18 10:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raloria.livejournal.com
Yeah, they often do. They had the info. about the Missy Benders gal being in the Slice Girls. That still blows my mind, btw. Seven years...whoah.

I was only a little disappointed because I'd built the episode up as this big angst-fest in my head (which I try not to do, but sometimes...). I'm sure I'll feel better about it on repeat viewings.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2012-02-18 11:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zestyzorra.livejournal.com
Sorry to butt in but he was wearing the amulet! XD

I checked [personal profile] ina_ami's recent screencap post and here's one of the caps:



Thanks for mentioning it, I feel so silly for not noticing it the first time. *SQUEE*!!!

Date: 2012-02-18 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, you can hardly pay Mark Pellegrino to be a background actor :P

Still, according to some interviews that I've read with Jared (or was it the Q&A session you went to?) He HAS been doing little things to show that Sam was still seeing stuff, but he thinks they were cut out for time...but anyway, yeah, I'm with you on that one. But, understanding their budgetary decisions, I'm happy with the way they handled it - because they reintroduced him as though he'd always been there, rather than just suddenly appearing again out of the blue (as I was afraid would happen.)

Definitely a disturbing episode in a good fiction way.

Date: 2012-02-18 11:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borgmama1of5.livejournal.com
Yeah, it was in the NashCon private Q&A that Jared said he'd been trying to add touches to show Luci was still around.

Date: 2012-02-18 10:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] purple-carpets.livejournal.com
I'm totally with you on the flashback happening in 09. There's no way Jared can pass off as S3 puppy Sammy. No way. (plus, you know, torture, Lilith, yada-yada, but mostly it's the 08!Jared vs 09!Jared thing)

Date: 2012-02-18 10:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Haha, yeah, that's the thing...we have to ignore the fact that Jared looks vastly different throughout the years.

If we're being true to chronological time, it'd be S4, but if we're being true to SPN-universe time, then it'd be S3. I guess the choice is up to the individual...Dean DID torture Meg as early as S1 (though it was mild torture)...and I think he even tortured Meg!Sam a little bit too in S2...and monicawoe below makes a good point about 3x15 opening with Dean torturing a demon.

Date: 2012-02-18 12:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] monicawoe.livejournal.com
Okay so you know I don't want to upset your time-line brain, but I have to stick with my initial reaction to the flashback:
It was most likely set between 3x15 and 3x16. They learned Lilith's name from Bela at the end of 3x15 and were easily that desperate for information on Dean's contract holder. Dean tortures a demon rather thoroughly at the beginning of 3x15 actually. More importantly though- that was NOT season 4 Sam. Season 4 Sam was a very different animal, and would not have shown even a hint of intimidation. In season 4 his whole posture was different. (also, yes Sam had that jacket in season 3 - it's first appearance was in 3x09 (factoid courtesy of you excellent catalog of knowledge!)

Date: 2012-02-18 10:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
See, I'm glad I posted that catalogue, so that when I'm too lazy to actually look up a piece of clothing, someone else will do it for me. :P

You make a very good point about S3, I'm afraid. There was PLENTY of time to torture demons between those episodes...not to mention that if it was between 3x15 and 3x16 (which are 3 weeks apart), both boys would have been very desperate for any information on Lilith.

I think I'll have to place the incident in both years on the timeline and people can make up their own minds.

Date: 2012-02-18 01:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vail-kagami.livejournal.com
I'm prette sure it was season 4, too. It just makes more sense to me, and I agree with your argument concernng the boys' reacion to torturing the guy. The talk about the "State secrets" the demon spilled fits, too. (On the other hand, the "previously" flashback in the beginning was from season 3, so...)
Unpleasant to watch, though, in a way that kind of reaminded me of my reactions to On the Head of a Pin.

Maybe the librarian was more chubby when Jeffrey saw her a year ago and lost weight since?

I was surprised that they actually used the word rape in regard to Lucifer and Sam instead of some thinly veiled word game. Altogether, this look into how the world looks to Sam - especially the scene in the library - in pretty damn disturbing.

Date: 2012-02-18 10:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
I'm not sure anymore...monicawoe made some really good points for it being S3 above. Hmmm...

Maybe the librarian was more chubby when Jeffrey saw her a year ago and lost weight since?

Yes, that had to be it.

I was surprised that they actually used the word rape in regard to Lucifer and Sam instead of some thinly veiled word game. Altogether, this look into how the world looks to Sam - especially the scene in the library - in pretty damn disturbing.

I'm really glad they're overtly talking about rape like that...especially in reference to a male. I actually find it refreshing...however weird that sounds.

But yes, Sam's world is extremely disturbing...I'm really happy we are finally getting to see it.

Date: 2012-02-18 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] morganlucas41.livejournal.com
I liked the ep too, and agree with a lot of what you said here!

The "four years ago" thing has really been bothering me too, and I'm really not sure if it was S3 or S4.

I feel like it was more likely that they were hunting Lilith in S4. But the only reason I don't like that explanation is that in On the Head of a Pin, Dean had SUCH an issue torturing Alistair for information. It's always struck me how, in S6 for example, he's so cavalier about doing it now when back then it was so much harder for him. Granted, that was Alistair, who he had more of a personal connection with than Lilith.

But, still, it strikes me as odd that Dean could so easily torture a demon like that post-Hell. Of course, I'm really not sure if the guys were that ruthless back in S3, either, so I don't know. (Probably the show just forgot about On the Head of a Pin.)

Anyways since I know you do the timeline I figured you would have some insight! Just thought I'd point that out to you. I also really enjoyed seeing Sam's hallucinations from his POV...and agree that the rape references, more explicit than ever this ep, are really disturbing. I feel like it's basically explicitly been stated at this point.

Date: 2012-02-18 11:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, monicawoe made a really good point above...and I analyzed my own timeline, and I'm actually favouring S3 now in terms of characterization. And it makes sense that they wouldn't suddenly start acknowledging The Year That Wasn't.

But yes, although Dean was a more experienced torturing post-hell - it's true that it upset him far more emotionally.

Also, in terms of the episodes surrounding it...it really makes more sense for Jeffrey's torture session to happen between 3x15 and 3x16, then it does for it to take place around the S4 "spring" episodes. (It's a Terrible Life, Monster at the End of this Book...etc.)

So, yeah...I'm actually leaning more towards S3 now.

It's definitely 100% stated more than once now that Sam was raped (repeatedly) in the cage. Poor guy.

I'm really happy we finally got to see the world from Sam's POV, as disturbing as it is.

Date: 2012-02-18 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katsheswims.livejournal.com
Hmmm, I'm thinking, but I don't think Sam or Dean has EVER killed a plain old human before-one that wasn't possessed. The closest is Sam killing that nurse when the demon hid in her at the end of S4. They didn't kill any of the Benders. Maybe someone else will come up with something, but I don't think they have...They've faced witches, but I don't think they've ever actually killed any of them except for the man-witch in the Halloween episode, and he was centuries old so I don't know if he counts as human.

As for the timeline, I'm thinking it has to be Season 4, but then I'm wondering why Dean is so cool with torturing-in The End he was mad at his future self for torturing people again. Back in season one (with Meg) Dean wasn't that opposed to torturing (demons) if it had to be done, but after Hell and Alastair he really didn't want to do it again. So perhaps it's sometime in late season 3 when they're looking for Lilith? We did miss a lot because of that writer's strike, so possibly this happened sometime before the final S3 episode. Though I still don't know about Dean torturing others for HIS sake (because this would have been to save himself from Hell if it's S3). He tortured Meg for his father. He tortured those demons in S6 for Ben and Lisa. The angels forced him to torture Alastair (though of course he wanted to get back at him deep down). If it was S4 he would be torturing to help everyone-averting the apocalypse...I just don't know.

By the way I loved the parallels between Dean and Jeffery. The creepy waltzing I think even referenced back to Alastair- he sang to Dean about it!

Date: 2012-02-18 08:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katsheswims.livejournal.com
Oh, I remembered. Dean killed Gwen, but I don't think that counts because he was kind of possessed. But Sam did kill Samuel! That's a regular human killing. Sam also killed that hunter in S2, but again possessed (by Meg) so it doesn't count.

Date: 2012-02-18 10:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Samuel was possessed when Sam killed him, so I don't think that counts either.

Date: 2012-02-18 11:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katsheswims.livejournal.com
Oh, yeah. I forgot about that.

Date: 2012-02-18 10:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Sam killed the psychic necrophiliac/necromancer dude in The Mentalists, but that's about it.

In S3 though, they were also operating under the belief that Lilith was after Sam...so Dean could have been torturing in the hopes of killing Lilith so that, one way or the other, she could not harm Sam. I'm just saying that to play devil's advocate...I'd actually prefer if it was S4, but another comment above made a good point - and the fact of the matter is that Supernatural has ignored the year-gap until now, so there's a good possibility it really was S3. Still, it's ambiguous enough that it could be either, which suits me fine. Maybe I'll just place a note in the timeline that it could be whatever you want it to be. :P

By the way I loved the parallels between Dean and Jeffery. The creepy waltzing I think even referenced back to Alastair- he sang to Dean about it!

Oh man, I didn't even think about that. Good catch.

Date: 2012-02-19 02:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borgmama1of5.livejournal.com
I just re-watched the episode, and in the teaser we get two shots of Dean's eyes in Hell from the end of 3.16, so I am going with this flashback was in season 4.

Date: 2012-02-19 02:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Really? Innnnnnteresting....just as I was giving into the idea of it being S3... I still have to do my rewatch, but I'll keep an eye out for that.

Date: 2012-02-19 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] percysowner.livejournal.com
I agree with the idea that this was set in season three, for all the reason's given. In addition to psychic guy in the Mentalists, Dean just killed an unpossessed human last week in Pluck Pennywhistle's... The guy was using hoodoo, but he was not possessed or a monster, just a human being. I'm pretty certain the writers have admitted that they forgot during season six to account for the unseen year and that they are just going to keep it that way, so the year happened, but it didn't happen. Also sadly

On Saturday the this schedule announcement came out. http://www.thewinchesterfamilybusiness.com/news/27-news-and-announcements/16876-supernatural-not-returning-until-march-16th.html

It seems that The CW's clever "March 9th" promo needs a major fix! The CW officially decided yesterday to push back Supernatural's return a week to March 16th. The info comes courtesy of Producer Todd Aronauer:

@TAronauer: #supernatural ep16 will air march 16. @CW_network made it official yesterday. Sorry fans.

I suppose that will mean one less week for break between episode 16 and the season finale. Gotta find that silver lining.

So we have to wait one more week. Sigh.

Date: 2012-02-19 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oh man, I can't believe I forgot the human he killed LAST WEEK! *facepalm*

And yes...I heard about that announcement last night :( Sad times forever (or until March 16th).

My sister kindly pointed out: "It's a good thing! You have WAY too much stuff to do!" Which is very true...

But yes, I like that silver lining. And I know the production is only 3 or 4 episodes ahead (filming), so this gives them time to make themselves a bigger buffer. :)


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