Rewatch S6: My Heart Will Go On (6x17)

[hells_half_acre]

Ok! Back to funny...

More complicated clothes in this one. Sam has a new plaid shirt (bless the boy, but I am running out of plaid shirt descriptions.) 

Anyway, let's get started...

Ellen!! I love you. Uh, sorry, it's just that she kicks off the THEN.

Oh yeah, mousetrap/rubegoldberg-machine death... I actually love deaths like this, it's a clever use of expectation and suspense.

I don't think a garage door could ACTUALLY decapitate you...it could probably break your neck though, which is pretty bad anyway.

*mouthing* "Say something"

*mouthing* "You!"

*mouthing* "No, you!"

- I love this. It's like those little parts of Bugs that I like when it's just subtle, but you are like "oh, brothers, so adorable."

First sign that something was fishy - Dean wins with scissors!  I remember when I watched this, I was like "WHAT?!?" Hahaha, I love that the show has character-things like that - I mean, someone just tuning in wouldn't know what it meant, but a lot of the fanbase shared my reaction, I'm sure.

"Bobby, you haven't slept in days."

"*mumbles* sleep - what are you my wife now?"
-I'll come back to this, but I love this line because 1)We'll come back to it at the very end of the episode, and 2)On first viewing it's just sarcasm, on second viewing, it's sarcasm with a hint. ;)

"You know when I realized Rufus was done for? The day I met him, it was only a question of who first, him or me. Now do you want to stand there and therapize or do you want to get me some coffee? Make it Irish."

- Dean comes from a long line of people who make bad alcohol decisions.
- On another note: Bobby has a point - when you are in a field of work with a high death rate, people assume (or you assume yourself) that you should be able handle it, that you should be prepared. Of course, we all know (hopefully) that's not true. You still feel the loss just as strongly. 

It might just be me, but the boys seem more settled and stable in the alternate universe as well...maybe because Ellen is still alive and living with Bobby? (and of course, Jo is still alive too.) Or maybe I've just gotten used to them being HORRIBLY broken, and this is a sweet spot between Sam being soulless and Sam's wall breaking down and Dean being horribly betrayed by his best friend.

Mustang! This was the BIGGEST "what the f*ck?!" moment and the give-away that the world had changed. I sort of noticed when they were in the car, because they are more squished together than usual. 

"Tell me you haven't been drinking this whole time."

"You're worse than the boys..."

-Aww, it's like they're a family (and they are) and just... ELLEN, WHY'D YOU HAVE TO LEAVE US?!?!?!

"Anybody ever tell you you're a pain in the ass?"

"That's why you married me."

-And they are MARRIED. I wonder how that worked out.. Anyway, I remember at this point, it was "Definitely an alternate universe." I love that in Supernatural AUs are canon. 

"It's gold!"

-I love how Sam knows how to test for gold - I didn't even know how to test for gold (<---I love how I say that like I'm supposed to know everything. Arrogant.) ((Ok, now I am taking notes on my notes...I am obviously going insane))

"There's definitely a skeleton in this family's closet. I mean, accidents just don't happen accidentally!...you know what I mean!"

- I love Dean. 

"Was anyone ever killed or maimed in a war or...some other violent thing?"

"What do you mean?"

"Like something so dark that it would sully future generations?"

"Uh, no"

"Good, good stuff. Anyone own a slave?"

"What?"

"Routine question. Any ties to the Nazi party?"

"'scuse me?"

"Did grandma ever piss off a gypsy?"

- Hahahaah, I really think Dean should have gotten Sam to do this interview. I love his "routine questions"

"Ok, I'll just cut to the chase here - your life is in danger."

"What? What is that a threat? Are you threatening me?"

"No, I'm not threatening you, I'm just simply saying that if you don't watch your back, you're going to die."

- Hehehe, like I said, maybe Sam would have been a better choice. 

I love the posters in the travel agent's place: Cuba: America's #1 destination and Detroit: voted America's top city! And she's trying to sell Havana on the phone, and it's great...especially since Cuba is a pretty damn popular place for Canadian to hang out....mainly because there are very few Americans, the Cubans probably hate us, because it's not like we're any better.

Ellen: "Oh don't worry, I'm kicking his ass back to health and happiness"

Bobby: "I heard that, who asked you to, the hell with you!"

Dean: "I heard that."

Ellen: "He'll be ok."

Dean: "Are you ok?"

Ellen: "Aw, honey, you're sweet. You know me, I just worry about you boys."
-Oh Ellen, how they need you. I was just talking about this a little with special_k414 in the comments of my previous rewatch, but one of the themes or subjects continuously explored in Supernatural to me is masculinity in the absence of the feminine. Basically, the show is a tragedy about men who cannot keep females in their life. It's what they want, but they are always denied it. Supernatural is a great exploration of masculinity in the modern era, and one of the ways they explore it in the show is by isolating it very severely. Ellen, to me, in this episode, isn't so much Ellen as a representation of what the boys crave (Bobby too) and that is for a feminine influence to love them and look after/out-for them. She is what they cannot have. She is what they continually fail to protect. There's a metaphor in there somewhere.

"It's a boat. It did what boats do."

- I like this line. It's true. Nothing (and no one) ever becomes famous for doing what it's (they're) supposed to do.

"This first mate, Mr. IP Freely."

"Well that's not suspicious. You got a picture of Mr. Freely?"

"You gotta be kidding me."

"Balthazar."

-I love how Balthazar is basically the angelic/adult version of Bart Simpson.

"Why did you unsink the ship?"

"Because I hated the movie."

"What movie?"

"Exactly, haha"

"So you saved a cruise liner because-"

"Because that god awful Celine Dion song made me want to smite myself."

"Who's Celine Dion?"

"Oh, she's a destitute lounge singer somewhere in Quebec, and lets keep it that way please."

- I have never seen Titanic, and I don't ever plan to. I remember when the poster came out. "She lives. He dies," I said, "the boat sinks. I have better things to spend $8 on." Man, remember when movies were only $8? Those were the days...also, I am not a fan of Celine Dion. 

"You totally butterfly-effected history!"

"Dude, dude, rule one, no Kutcher references."

- I love that they have a RULE...haha, I'm sure he was just using that as an expression, but it was hilarious.

"Like you don't drive an Impala...yes yes, what's an Impala, trust me, it's not important. And of course, Ellen and Jo are alive."

"Ellen and Jo are.."

"Yes yes, they're supposed to be dead."

-Um, excuse me, but the Impala is the MOST IMPORTANT OBJECT IN THE UNIVERSE! I kind of wish they had addressed that - but I guess in this universe, Sam bonded with the mustang and IT saved the world. Oh Sam, you are so capricious with your love.

"I'm sorry you have me confused with the other angel, the one in the dirty trench coat that's in love with you. I don't care."

-Yes, I know these comments are verging on fanservice - but even as a non-shipper, I love them.

"You know, the easiest way would just be to get that angel to resink the boat."

"Big difference between dying awful and never being born, Dean."

"We are not sinking the boat, Bobby, okay, don't even think about it."

-Part of me wonders if that line is significant...they keep bringing it up, ever since the fifth season...that it's better to have never been born. I wonder sometimes if it's foreshadowing, or if it's just coincidence, or if I'm just reading way too much into it...

"Ok, what's got your panties in a clench."

"Nothing."

"Try that again."

-I love Bobby...also, Dean likes wearing panties *giggle*. (Seriously though, the Dean/Panties thing is the closest I get to a ship. I have such a thing for crossdressers...I really really wish 99% of them weren't gay.)

"Apparently a crap load of dominos get tipped over if the titanic goes down, and bottom line, Ellen and Jo die."

"Okay you two listen up, you make sure - keep those angels from sinking that boat, you understand me."

-Oh Bobby.

"He's bad enough with her, think how he'd be if she was gone."

-Think how you'd all be! But he still has you, at least.

I think that's the west side of Vancouver. I could be wrong....but it looks far richer than me. (I live on the east side, where the poor people are.)

The bus is Route 666 Haha! I didn't notice that the first time.

"Sam, check it out!"

"What?"

*points to Russo advertisement*

"Too soon?"

"Yeah, Dean, I'm pretty sure 6 seconds is too soon."

- I think Sam and Dean have absolutely ZERO issues in this episode. It's so rare...and they are hilarious.

"Her? As in Fate her?"

"Yeah"

"What'd she look like?"

"Kind of like a...librarian."

"Your kind of librarian or my kind of librarian?"

"Well, she was wearing clothes, if that's what you mean."

-Again, just funny. 

You'd smell that much gas pretty much right away...but I guess it's all in the other room.

"Hey, thanks, man. Where are we?"

"White Russia"

-You know, I kind of wish it was still called "White Russia", it's just...more romantic...like snow, and stuff. Also, technically the second time that Sam and Dean have been overseas!

"So what do we do?"

Cas: "Kill her."

"Kill Fate?"

-Oh man, you know, you start to get the feeling that things aren't what they seem when Cas suggests they kill Fate...well to me, anyway. I mean, it seems pretty drastic. But maybe I'm just looking at it with my hindsight goggles on.

"You need new friends, Cas."

"I'm trying to save the ones I have, Dean."

- I think Cas's friends need new friends. OUCH! BURN! Aww, ok, I feel bad...poor Cas, he is just a wayward angel making all the wrong choices. He needs a hug and an after school special. ("after school special" sounds like a good name for a marijuana brand....or something sexual, only, you know, among consenting people of a certain age.)

"Quickest fix is to just sink the boat."

"Why would you say that?"

"Well, cause right now people are dying bloody, not the same as never being born."

-Again, why do they keep repeating this? Is it just because it's true? But is it? Is it not better to have lived and lost than never to have lived at all? Oh wait, I'm getting my sayings confused.

"So, not just me, but Jo too."

"Their not going to sink the boat, I promise. The boat stays, you don't have to worry."

"Well, if it was meant to be, then I guess whatever happens happens."

"That's just my point, nothing's meant to be! Whether we're together isn't the whim of some dick angel."

- Technically, whether John and Mary were together was also the whim of some dick angel(s). It seems to be the way of their universe, whether or not they agree to it.

"Bobby, relax"

"I can't, we need you, especially me."

-And again, we return to the theme of them desperately wanting, but not being able to keep, women in their lives. It's why I don't really see the lack of women on the show as misogynistic. I know countless people disagree with me (and please not I will NOT be engaging in any sort of misogynistic debate in comments), but to me the show points to it's lack of women with a neon sign and says "this sucks!" The lack of women is part of the story they are telling. It's not incidental.

Whole tempting fate sequence is fantastic. I love it.

"I had a job. God gave me a job. We all had a script. I worked hard, I was really really good at what I did. Until the day of the big prize fate and then what happens? you throw out the book!"

"Well I'm sorry, but freedom is more preferable."

"Freedom? This is chaos, how is it better? I even went to heaven to see what to do next, and you know what? No one would even talk to me."

-This is really an age old debate. What's better freedom or control? How much do you balance the two? How much government interference is too much? How much is too little? Are humans inherently good or inherently evil? Is anarchy possible?  Uh...I have no idea how to answer any of these questions.

"You sent him back to sink that ship."

"No I didn't, why would I"

-Cas has taken lying lessons from Sam, apparently. (As in, he is not very good at it.)

"No, you can't just mint money, Castiel. It's wrong, it's dangerous. And I won't let you."

- I wonder how the transaction worked. Because he saved them, were their souls somehow his? How did he get the power from this act? It's true though, you can't just mint money - that's the leading cause of hyperinflation, depressions, and subsequent totalitarian regimes.

"If you don't go back and sink that boat. I'm going to kill your two favourite pets."

"I won't let you."

- It's the ONE thing they can threaten him with really...and it does make my heart go out to Castiel. It's true he believes in freedom, and it's true he doesn't want to bow to Raphael anyway...but I still think he's really doing everything he'd doing because he is trying to save Dean and Sam. It's his base goal. It's just a shame that he is trying to save them without them having any imput into how he goes about it. It's Dean selling his soul for Sam all over again.

"You're not fighting a war or anything right? You can watch them at every moment of every day..."

-I'd like a universe where Castiel wasn't fighting a war and actually COULD watch them at every moment of every day. He really would be "the angel on their shoulder" that he got so pissed off at Dean for suggesting back in 4x02.

Haha, actually playing the Celine Song is brilliant, I had forgotten about that.

"Dude what time is it? I just had the weirdest dream"

"Twenty bucks says mine was weirder, I'm not kidding."

"No, mine was weirder. It was just...bizarre."

"Mine had the actual titanic in it....what? Something on my face?"

"Did it not sink? Because Balthazar-"

"Had a hate on for Billy Zane? Why are you having my dreams dude?!"

- I love this exchange - especially Dean's face at the end, and how he immediately assumes that it's Sam having Dean's dreams, and not the other way around. Sammy's the freak of the family after all. Oh Dean. 

"I insisted he go back in time and correct what he had done."

"What? Why?"

"It was the only way to be sure you would be safe."

"So, you killed 50,000 people for us?"

"No, I didn't. They were never born. It's far different than being killed, wouldn't you say?"

- Repetition of that line. Also, when Sam suggests that Cas killed 50,000 people for them. I think he meant it was a "I'm touched, thank you" and Cas had this moment where he wanted to accept that gratefulness and feel like the big damn hero that he is trying to be, but it's all kind of a big lie, so he couldn't. (does that make any sense to anyone? Sometimes I feel like I don't make any sense.)

"Ellen and Jo?"

"I'm sorry."

"Hold on...so if you guys went and changed everything back, then that whole timeline it just got erased?"

"Yeah, more or less."

"Well then how come he and I remember it?"

"Because I wanted you to remember it."

"Why?"

"I wanted you to know who fate really is. She's cruel and capricious."

"I'd go as far as bitch."

"Well, yeah, you're the ones that taught me that you can choose your own destiny. You don't have to be ruled by fate, you can choose freedom. I still believe that's something worth fighting for. I just wanted you to understand that."
- Cas just keeps setting up the background for them. He's laying out the reasons that he's doing what he is doing, but he isn't telling them WHAT he is doing. Basically, he is answering the question of WHY? without them knowing that it needs to be asked. And, I think he's doing this because he KNOWS that it's wrong, he KNOWS they are going to kick his ass...but he's in denial about it...he feels like maybe if he can just get them to the point where he was when he made the deal, they'll understand and not be mad, but that's not going to happen. Sam was mad when Dean made his deal...Dean was made when Sam drank demon-blood to try to protect Dean....and Sam and Dean are both going to be mad when they find out Castiel's shenanigans. 

"So, wait, did Balthazar really unravel this sweater over a chick-flick."

"Yes, absolutely, that's what he did."

"Well, might be time to take away his cable privaledges. Besides, Titanic didn't suck THAT bad. Winslet's rack?"

*Castiel disappears*

"I tell you one thing about Cas, he does not appreciate the finer things."

-I think Castiel disappears because if he stayed a minute longer they would have realized he is full of shit.

"I guess things are back to normal, huh"

"Normal, awesome."

"Poor bastard, doesn't even know how good he had it."

"Well, what he doesnt know can't hurt him. I say we keep our mouths shut."

"Yeah, should we wake him?"

"No, this is probably the best he's felt all week."

*Dean covers sleeping Bobby with a blanket*

-Ok, so now we circle back to the 'what are you, my wife?" line...because, I'm not saying that Dean is Bobby's wife - but he is Bobby's family. And in the absence of Bobby's wife, he (and Sam) are the people who step up to help and look after Bobby.

AWWW, love.

Ok, SUPPER TIME, I will type this up LATORZ....
-Why did I actually write this in my notes? No one reads these things but me before I type them up properly. Um, anyway, since it's there: Dinner was delicious. I had leftover Channa Masala.

In other news, my ankle (or as I like to call it "the last remnant of VanCon2011") is improving quickly! Yay! The bad news, of course, is that means that my time with the cute physiotherapist guy is finite. I posted about it on facebook, and my uncle wrote: "Perhaps you should go for a walk along the cobblestone streets of Gastown to contemplate your predicament." Hahaha.

Tune in tomorrow for Frontierland! 

Comments

[4422shini.livejournal.com]

"No, you can't just mint money, Castiel. It's wrong, it's dangerous. And I won't let you."
- I wonder how the transaction worked. Because he saved them, were their souls somehow his? How did he get the power from this act? It's true though, you can't just mint money - that's the leading cause of hyperinflation, depressions, and subsequent totalitarian regimes.

BAHAHAHAHA!! That's almost what DID lead to Cas' totalitarian regime...

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, true!

[ramblin_rosie]

Dude, cobblestone streets HURT. Or at least the ones in Oxford did. (Joke, yes, I know, but still.)

Re: never being born: I wonder if that's foreshadowing, too, but Job wishes that he had never been born in Job 3; Jeremiah says more or less the same thing in Jer. 20:14-18; and Jesus is on record twice (Matt. 26:24 and Mark 14:21) as saying that it would have been better for Judas had he not been born. I definitely don't think it's a coincidence. However, I do keep waiting for someone to hit Dean with Gandalf's insight:

Frodo: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yes, I could never figure out how those ladies in Europe could walk on cobblestones in high heels! I could barely manage it in sneakers...though I do love the look of the cobblestone streets.

Re: biblical references - that's awesome! Thanks for that knowledge. So, either it's forshadowing, or its tying Supernatural in with the judeo-christian mythology (or just the christian mythology? I forget sometimes which books are old testament and which are new, besides the ones directly relating to Jesus).

Ah Gandalf...he really does need to have a talk with Dean.

[ramblin_rosie]

Judeo-Christian--and really, more Jewish than not, given that Jesus was considered a rabbi. (Job and Jeremiah are Old Testament.)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Really? I thought they considered him a false prophet...maybe that's just a possibility? I don't know as much about Judaism as I should. This is why I can't write my pre-series Dean Joins the New York Jewish Community fic. :P

[ramblin_rosie]

Depends on who you asked at the time. The disciples called Him "Rabbi," and He was asked to read and/or teach in a synagogue on several occasions. People also came to Him with disputes on matters of Jewish law--often to try to trap Him ("Is is lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?"), but sometimes with genuine problems. But the Sanhedrin wasn't able to charge Him with anything until they asked Him straight, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" He answered yes, which they considered blasphemy (hence the Crucifixion). It took another twenty years or so for most people on both sides to begin viewing Christianity as something other than just a Jewish sect, and the process of separation continued well into the second century.
*Now,* however, I think the standard position among Jewish religious leaders is that Jesus was at best a good teacher, at worst a false prophet, but definitely not Messiah. But then there are Messianic Jews who do believe that Jesus is Messiah but still keep kosher and adhere to traditions as they were in the first century (at least according to the ones I've met).

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Cool! Thanks for the information! I like to learn things. :)

[special-k414.livejournal.com]

Yay for real world discussions applying to fantasy! \o/ I had totally forgotten about this episode. I do love Ellen. Why'd she have to go away? *sniff* But yes, absolutely I see even more of what you were saying before about the absence of women in SPN. About the misogyny, if anything I think it would be something they do against the guys, don't you? The absence of women, primarily a mother figure, has shaped the guys into who they are now since day one and the results have not always been pretty. It's an odd idea and one not usually thought of randomly, but isn't it usually the presence of a mother that depicts a "family?" Like, when we see Sam, Dean, Cas when he's not being a jerkoff face douchebag, and Bobby we see them as more of a makeshift family, something barely holding on, which they are. But in this ep, with Ellen, everyone was more grounded and solid, more open (as you said, almost 0 Sam-Dean problems...). It's interesting to see that how, although our society is pegged as patriarchal, our thoughts and feelings about mothers and families is so matriarchal. I believe the quote from the movie "Silent Hill" sums it up nicely for our boys: "Mother is God in the eyes of a child." And while I'm thinking about it, what about Cas? Even he has lacked a suitable parental figure all his life until Bobby.

As far as the "it would be better to not be born than to die bloody," I agree somewhat with ramblin_rosie, I honestly see that as the boys' inner voices/subconscious stating their inner feelings sometimes. They've mentioned throughout the series about wanting to never have been born, i would comment more on this, but I'm falling asleep as I type!

[galwithglasses.livejournal.com]

Reading your comment, it makes me think that Bobby, Dean, Sam, and Cas are all kind of like Peter Pan and the Lost Boys waiting for Wendy to come and tell them stories and tuck them in. In some ways, they each try to fill the role on their own for the others. Dean's the only mom that Sam ever had and Jess was around for a little while. Bobby does some of the same for Dean and I think Lisa did also to some extent. Cas was adrift with only what he picked up from observation and the unreliable source of the Winchesters. Bobby is probably the only one that has any idea what having a female presence around is like but who knows his history other than Karen. I'm guessing he grew up with a mom. They try to compensate for the lack but when you see them with Ellen in the picture, you realize how off they've been. When Ellen was part of their lives, she wasn't diminished as a character. Still the same tough, competent woman she was but she had someone to share the road with and probably wasn't as lonesome. It made me miss her even more.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I like that analogy of Peter and the lost boys - it's very apt, and I think rings true.

They try to compensate for the lack but when you see them with Ellen in the picture, you realize how off they've been.

I find this is the case with the scenes where Dean and Sam get to see their mother too (even if she is just a withdrawal-hallucination)...it's like suddenly, in the presence of their mother, we see how truly broken and vulnerable they are without her. I think we got just a LITTLE bit of that here, where suddenly with Ellen around, everything seemed a little more solid, their foundations a little stronger.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

The absence of women, primarily a mother figure, has shaped the guys into who they are now since day one and the results have not always been pretty.

Yes, exactly...and we see it in the rare moments where the boys are actually in the presence of their mother. It's like all their brokenness comes out in clear detail and we see how very vulnerable they are and have been without her.

It's interesting to see that how, although our society is pegged as patriarchal, our thoughts and feelings about mothers and families is so matriarchal.

This is very true. I know of a family where the mother was the one who was (arguably) abusive and (thankfully) abandoned the family early on...leaving the father as the sole parent of the two children. He quickly discovered that everything was designed for mothers...changing tables were in the women's restrooms...if he wanted to take his kids across the border, he needed a note from their mother, even though she was a horrible mother and not part of their lives...and a thousand other little things, I'm sure.

And while I'm thinking about it, what about Cas? Even he has lacked a suitable parental figure all his life until Bobby.

Very true, which is why I think Dean ended up seeing him as a child and becoming part of that parental unit himself. He did it with Sam too, so why not Cas? Both Sam and Cas had authoritarian father's that they either did not get along with, or did not even see, and in both cases, Dean stepped in to be the support that they lacked.

Also, and I'll talk about this today when I do Frontierland...but when Cas needed a safe place to go. He went to Bobby's.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

"No, you can't just mint money, Castiel. It's wrong, it's dangerous. And I won't let you."
- I wonder how the transaction worked. Because he saved them, were their souls somehow his? How did he get the power from this act? It's true though, you can't just mint money - that's the leading cause of hyperinflation, depressions, and subsequent totalitarian regimes.


I found the number of 50,000 interesting, especially since we learn that Cas owe Crowley 50,000 souls. I think that by creating them, Cas did "own" the souls in a way and that he was fully intending on sending them to Hell to repay his debt, whether or not they deserved to go. Cas was trying to pay down his deal for Purgatory souls with human souls.


"Ellen and Jo?"
"I'm sorry."
"Hold on...so if you guys went and changed everything back, then that whole timeline it just got erased?"
"Yeah, more or less."
"Well then how come he and I remember it?"
"Because I wanted you to remember it."
"Why?"
"I wanted you to know who fate really is. She's cruel and capricious."
"I'd go as far as bitch."

I find this quote by Castiel to be very interesting, because Fate wasn't being capricious and although her death's were intricate, they weren't torturous or all that cruel. She was truly trying to reset the damage that Cas had done by unsinking the Titanic. Fate was clearly upset by the loss of her job, but she said she simply moved on an coped until Cas overstepped.

I am interested in the idea that was continually repeated that not being born is different from dying. Since Dean got the if Mary had live episode, I would love to see Sam get an It's a Wonderful Life episode, where he could see how the world turned out if he had not been born. So much evil surrounded Sam from 10 years before he was born. On some level I think Sam would have good reason to feel that the world would be better if he were never born and that not being born would be preferable to going into the Cage for however long he was there. I don't know if the show will ever go this way, but I would like to see it.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Ooo...I didn't catch that it was 50,000 and 50,000. Good call.

I find this quote by Castiel to be very interesting, because Fate wasn't being capricious and although her death's were intricate, they weren't torturous or all that cruel.

Yes! I forgot to mention that in the post, but you are spot on. I really think Castiel was trying to "spin" this, so that it looked like Fate was the bad guy, and not Castiel for messing with things too much. He was trying to make himself out to be the hero that they should trust, and in order to do that, he needed to make those against him look like villains.

On some level I think Sam would have good reason to feel that the world would be better if he were never born and that not being born would be preferable to going into the Cage for however long he was there. I don't know if the show will ever go this way, but I would like to see it.

It would be VERY interesting, but I'm not sure if it's something we actually want to see. It might be harder to come back from - because the show has already said that if Sam had never been born, then Mary and John would still be alive. Unlike Dean, who would sacrifice his utopia if Sam (or rather, his relationship with Sam) isn't a part of it...I'm not sure Sam would do the same if he saw John and Mary alive, and Dean happy.

[percysowner.livejournal.com]

I would depend on the real cost. It is possible that Jake or Ava would have provided and adequate substitute vessel for Lucifer. If Sam hadn't been born, then it is unlikely that John would have cheated and Dean would have been about the only vessel around for Michael. John, if still alive, would have been a back up, but if Dean had been raised in a house believing that angels were watching over him AND had never had any reason to be suspicious of angels, he might well have said yes to Michael and the Apocalypse on.

Sam seeing Dean possessed by Michael, half the world dead and who know what other fallout from Dean and another psy kid saying yes to Michael and Lucifer respectively might well make Sam see that his upbringing, his pain, his suffering were the only things that stood between an Apocalyptic battle with Dean being lost in his own body or the relative peace that was obtained by Sam's sacrifice.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I certainly wouldn't say no to seeing Jensen in the role of Michael, that's for sure!

But you're right - there are probably plenty of circumstances where Sam would be able to see why it's good he was born.

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

I agree with your theory of the missing female presence in a male focused world. I don't think the show is misogynistic, though I suppose I can see why some people would think so-it honestly never occurred to me that some people saw it that way until I got involved with the SPN fandom and started reading meta and things other than fic.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I saw a great article about misogyny in Supernatural that pointed out all the places where people think it is misogynistic, and then pointed out that even with all that misogyny, it is still one of the least misogynistic shows on TV. So, I guess we can either be happy and proud of it, or extremely depressed about society :P

To me if something is less misogynistic than I was when I was in high school, I figure it's doing okay.

[khek.livejournal.com]

I think the female characters in Supernatural are very strong...even the ones who die in the opening credits. They may be wearing less than the males, but they're out there fighting just as hard.

Besides, I'm tired of all the "who's sleeping with whom" shows out there. I find it refreshing to watch a show that's about two brothers fighting for survival.

As for My Heart Will Go On...it felt like Sam and Dean had been raised by Bobby and Ellen, alongside Jo. It made me wonder if, in this AU, John had decided to go be a hunter on his own, and left the boys with them. It felt like a stronger relationship than "after Stanford".

I loved Fate. She was just doing her job, cleaning up the angels' mess, and she wasn't all that happy about it.

The thing I can't get my head around is the time between 1914 and 2011. Wouldn't it have been easier to take care of the extra souls back in 1915? Or even 1940? Less souls, less mess. But maybe they had to end the extra souls at the same time they were created? Argh. Time travel makes my head spin.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

They may be wearing less than the males, but they're out there fighting just as hard.

I agree. Basically, my test for misogyny is whether the story makes sense if I switch everyone's gender. So, as long as the writers are writing believable and strong humans, then I don't really care who lives and who dies.

It made me wonder if, in this AU, John had decided to go be a hunter on his own, and left the boys with them. It felt like a stronger relationship than "after Stanford".

Hmmm, you have a VERY good point. Mind you, it couldn't have been their whole lives. Bill Harvelle died in 1995, so it would have been anytime after that that Bobby and Ellen got together, and then still after that for Dean and Sam to join. So, sometime between 1995 and 2002? It doesn't leave a lot of time for romance...but we do know that at some point Bobby threatens John with a shot-gun, so maybe there was a disagreement about the kids before Bobby and Ellen hooked up. It could have gone in that order. Sam and Dean left with Bobby first, and then Ellen and Jo join. It's an interesting AU!

ss. But maybe they had to end the extra souls at the same time they were created?

This is what I think the case is. They have to fix the problem in the time it was created, not in the past. And yes, it makes my head hurt too.

[jennytork.livejournal.com]

Hi, new friend here...I commented in two posts on my journal about this episode and wanted to share.

http://jennytork.livejournal.com/556043.html#comments

and

http://jennytork.livejournal.com/557410.html#comments

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hello! Welcome! :)

Great comments on the episode! And both very astute.

I didn't even notice the wedding band. :P

And you are very correct about Dean, and the problem of who nurtures the nurturer - of course, the additional problem is how do you nurture someone who refuses to admit they need it?

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

Ellen, to me, in this episode, isn't so much Ellen as a representation of what the boys crave (Bobby too) and that is for a feminine influence to love them and look after/out-for them. She is what they cannot have. She is what they continually fail to protect. There's a metaphor in there somewhere.

And here we are in season 12 and your observation still holds true under even harder circumstances--Mom being back and still not being there for them. Ouch.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Indeed! It's a layer of the current season that I'm really interested in. Supernatural has been a tragedy of the suppressed/destroyed feminine for 11 years, and now it has a chance to explore what the feminine means - what it is and what it isn't, and possibly the destructive effects of sacredness.