Quick Reaction: 5x16 Dark Side Of The Moon
Apr. 1st, 2010 10:28 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
hells_half_acreOne man's heaven...
Wow, that was a depressing episode...but, let's start at the beginning.
The death scene: Awesome! I love how some things remain true...Dean is still PISSED that someone killed Sam. I love how beautiful Sam looks when he's dead. That seems a weird thing to say, but ...yeah, it's like when young people sleep and they look beautiful and innocent and YOUNG.
I LOVE the idea that Dean and Sam are the elite of the Hunting world - that you don't want Dean Winchester on your ass. I love that Dean KNEW he was coming back.
The first memory of Dean's in heaven nearly had me crying. I don't even have words....just, the absolutely love for his brother and happiness because SAM was happy.
Cas telling him he's in heaven and asking him what he sees - "some see a river...for you it's a road" I love the reference to mythology there.
And finding Sam in the memory of Thanksgiving was amusing...and then Dean's "I wuv hugs" shirt...hilarious, just for the fact that we have Sam saying "wuv." Of course, it immediately becomes heartbreaking when Sam tries calling to his mother and she ignores him.
Then we learn that John and Mary's marriage was only perfect after she died. And man, how I LOVED Sam's line that he didn't realize/forgot "how long you've been cleaning up Dad's messes." Man, it upped my heartbreak for Dean ten-fold and who knew that was possible?
Then we get Sam in Flagstaff - apparently Sam ran away for two weeks once, and Dean thought he was dead and got in trouble. Meanwhile Sam was living it up and actually had a dog - of course named Bones, that's adorable. And then the pieces start falling into place, because this is the second happy memory of Sam's that doesn't involve Dean whatsoever - meanwhile Dean's very first happy memory was all about Sam.
Then to top it off, we get the night Sam ditched them for Stanford - and Dean suddenly realizes that all Sam's memories were of Sam alone, or Sam against the world, and Dean didn't factor into any of them, not even as an afterthought. For someone who basically devoted his whole life to keeping Sam safe and happy, that's a pretty hard pill to swallow.
It's cool that Zachariah can't find them even in heaven. Those enochian symbols are tattooed to their ribs on the bodies they left behind, but apparently that's good enough - or maybe it's different finding souls.
ASH!! Nice to see him again...and Pamela. I like Ash's throw-away line about a "practical use of string-theory."
I also like the idea that Ash finds them every time they come to heaven - which really isn't THAT much. I mean, Sam twice, Dean - well, I guess the Trickster really did kill him all those times, but sent him to heaven each time instead of jumpstarting his time in hell?
I don't like Pamela telling Dean to say yes. I really don't. That didn't sit well at all.
Then we get a twisted memory - with Zach using Mary to play on Dean's crippling self-esteem issues. That was just really mean, and I love how upset Sam gets about it. Being all sleazy with their Mum was a nice touch - sure fire way to piss a dude off is to come on to his mother.
Joshua...ok, for this scene, as soon as it changed to "the Garden" my sister was like "*gasp* AWESOME!!" because that's the Bloedel Conservatory and is one of our favorite places in the city! It's true, there's one aspect of living in the city where the show is filmed where it kind of takes you out of the action a bit when you recognize where they are, on the other hand though, it's frickin' awesome on a whole other level.
But then we find out that yes, God is alive and on earth, but no, he will not be intervening further. And man, there was a while there where Joshua was talking, and I really have to watch it again, because he was staring at Dean while he was saying very specific things...and I can't help but think that there's some meaning behind that. Still...
Then the boys wake up on earth, covered in blood. And man, those Hunter's were dumb, because if *I* was going to kill a Winchester, I would make damn sure I immediately salted and burned the bones....but now, those two idiots just left them there.
And then they had to break the news to Castiel - and that just killed me. But the worst, the absolute WORST was the fact that Dean didn't put the amulet back on - that he just ditched it too. That's not just God-EMF Dean, it's a gift from SAM! A symbol of the connection with to your brother that you wore for almost 20 years of your life! And good lord (irony!) how much more depressing can this show get?!
I'm really worried that Sam isn't going to hang on to the amulet. I'm really worried that it's just going to disappear like Dean's ring and bracelet.
Man...I don't even know...I'm worried about a whole ton of stuff.
Anyway, a couple of questions from the episode:
1. If Ash can't find John or Mary in heaven, where are they?
2. There had to be hidden meaning behind Joshua's speech...but what?
3. Why is heaven so goddamn dark? I need to download the episode now so that I can actually see what happens and not just hear it (for those who don't know, the brightness level of my TV is permanently set to "annoyingly dark". THAT + Supernatural, means that this isn't the first time I'll have to rewatch on my computer just to see people's facial expressions.
4. What's Castiel going to do now? I really wished Dean would have hugged him like he did his Mum and told him that God still loved him - but I guess that's a little bit too Touched By An Angel. :-P
5. If God is on earth, where is he?
6. If God is not going to intervene, what are the Winchesters going to do? Give in? Just keep resisting?
Oh man...
So, unlike the show, I'm going to end on a positive note. Susie and I are pretty positive people, we can't really help it. Tonight, Susie turned to me and said:
Susie: You know, they're actually quite lucky if you think about it.
Me: Who?
Susie: Sam and Dean.
Me: How so?
Susie: Well, for most people, once their parents die, they don't ever get to see them again.
Now I'm going download it, because there was a WEALTH of time-line information in there.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 05:56 am (UTC)Yeah. I was convinced she was a plant for a minute.
I greatly enjoyed the first 3/4ths of this episode, winced a bit at the hamfistedness of the last quarter (though that was probably mostly due to the comparison), and feel pretty good about it overall.
I was kind of surprised they didn't give Sam one happy dean-memory. I mean, I got it, but at the same time... *waves her hands around vaguely* it just feels, given their relationship, there should have been something, even as an afterthought.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 06:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 07:11 am (UTC)I think if they had stayed in there long enough, they would have found plenty of happy Sam memories that included Dean - after all, he looked like he was having fun that forth of July. The problem was that the 3 memories they did come across didn't have Dean and they're the only one's Dean saw. In Sam's defense, Sam was only included in 1 out of 2 of the memories the Dean memories we saw...
But yeah, hamfistedness aside (I've come to expect it), I thought this episode was pretty killer.
It was certainly depressing though.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 02:45 pm (UTC)The most boring part of all for me was the bit where Zachariah was corrupting Mary's memory; I was kind of like, "oh, yawn, another bad guy trying to screw with their minds, and Dean has low self-esteem and abandonment issues."
I will say one thing- if they actually bring back JMD to play God... I think, you know, I don't know. Either I will applaud them for being ballsy enough to go through with their anvils- I mean, metaphors- or I will start beating my head against a wall. I'm not exactly sure at this point.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 07:44 pm (UTC)Yeah, I feel the same way. I'm hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 04:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 05:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 05:58 am (UTC)There is clearly a line by Mary in Dean's second memory where she mentions Sammy's napping. So... yeah. Sam's in that memory. He's just not awake and in the kitchen.
But anyways, even though I agree with you about Sam's memories being manipulated by the angels, it still burns that Dean's were all focused on Sam and family and there wasn't a *single* memory of Sam that featured Dean in some way, even in the peripherals.
The saddest bit of this whole ep? Dean's face when he realizes it's the night Sam left for Stanford -- the way he's half hysterical and almost crying when he goes "This is the worst night of my life." Awwww. DEEEEEAN. *pets* Second worst? Dean's face in Flagstaff when he just trails off at his line about how he looked for Sam and when Dad came home... God, his expression right there said everything.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:03 am (UTC)I still maintain that had they been able to stay in heaven long enough, Dean WOULD have seen all the times that Dean was the centre of Sam's world - because he is. Sam might revel in independence, but that doesn't mean that Dean isn't everything to him. I think just as Sam's self-absorption prevents him from seeing the pain his actions inflict on Dean, Dean's insecurities prevent him from seeing the absolute love that Sam has for him.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:17 am (UTC)But I also think it was a bit of deux ex machina on the angels' part and it was about breaking Dean enough for Dean to say "yes" to Michael.
I love the way you worded this -- you truly hit the nail on the head and it's exactly how I feel too -- Sam's self-absorption prevents him from seeing the pain his actions inflict on Dean, Dean's insecurities prevent him from seeing the absolute love that Sam has for him.
And I'd dearly love to whap both brothers for it -- to whack Sam on the upside of the head and show him how his natural self-absorption has hurt Dean (and he sees some of it in this episode, but I was with Dean -- if Sam was to say "I didn't think..." one more time, I was going to knee him in the 'nads) and whack Dean because he just doesn't see how much his Sammy truly, unconditionally loves him and he's too insecure to see it (which is levels of SAD).
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:29 am (UTC)I have a best friend who has the same problem as Sam when it comes to self-absorption, which is why I think I can recognize (unlike some Dean!girls - not you - just some of them) that just because Sam's too self-absorbed to see what he's doing to Dean, doesn't mean he WANTS to hurt him, or that he loves him any less. Sam just has the same problem as my best friend...occasionally, he'll start walking around in a Sam-bubble and forget that there are other people in the world who might have feelings :P
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 07:14 am (UTC)BOTH OF THEM ARE LEVELS OF SAD!
I'm more like Dean but I do have some of Sam's self-absorption -- I think everyone does, to an extent.
I definitely always felt since S1 and agree with you 100% that just because Sam's too self-absorbed to see what he's doing to Dean, doesn't mean he WANTS to hurt him, or that he loves him any less. It's never been a question or doubt in my mind that Sam WANTS to hurt Dean or doesn't set the sun and moon on Dean -- you can tell Sammy loves his DEEEEEAN. And his self-absorption is not of the malicious sort; he doesn't go out of his way to hurt others or to fulfill the ends to his own personal means. BUT he does have a Sam-bubble where he sees and feels what he does and forgets that there's other people in the world who have feelings and those feelings might be hurt (AKA Dean's).
But I truly don't blame Sam -- he just frustrated me because I knew how much Dean was hurting with each one of his "I didn't think"
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 07:24 am (UTC)It's true, because sadly, it's an excuse that just hurts Dean more...because yes, he's saying "I wouldn't have been happy if I had realized what it did to you". but he's also saying "I didn't even think of you...I'm your whole world and there is never a moment when you don't consider me, but this here is a moment where you and your feelings didn't even cross my mind."
So, yeah, completely understandable why one would get frustrated with Sam :P
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 02:17 pm (UTC)By the Stanford memory I was all "Just shut up Sam! Can't you see that line's not going anywhere and making it worse for Dean. Just... SHUT UP!"
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:24 pm (UTC)I'm sure there was a way Sam could have phrased his apology so that it wouldn't have been an added insult - but, being on the run from Zach wasn't conducive to thinking of it :P
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 07:01 pm (UTC)I think as viewers, we get the ability to see both brothers' standpoints that we forget the characters themselves don't have that objectivity. They only see what they understand, within their own subjective worldview. So even though *WE* know Sam's trying to apologize, trying to explain he didn't think of how the repercussions of his actions influenced Dean, Dean just took Sam's apology as I didn't even think of you...I'm your whole world and there is never a moment when you don't consider me, but this here is a moment where you and your feelings didn't even cross my mind." and it was most definitely colored by his own insecurities.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 07:27 pm (UTC)Yes! I think this is the main problem with a lot of those out there that overly criticize one brother or the other - they forget that they have the advantage of being on the outside looking in, and can look at the predicament objectively.
The Winchesters, especially when it comes to their relationship, do not have objectivity...as Lisa said, they have the most codependent twisted thing...it no wonder that at the worst of times, they can not deal with it in a healthy way.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 11:49 pm (UTC)Also? They really are codependent. And unhealthily so. Neither of them have the best coping mechanisms either -- Dean practically spells out in SAM INTERRUPTED that he gets about 4 hours of sleep per 48 hours and is well on his way to dying of liver cirrhosis. And Sam's not much healthier. He's just less external than Dean. So they aren't going to deal with each other, their relationship, and everything else crashing around them in a well-adjusted manner.
They're both flawed and seriously screwed up and that's why we love them.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 07:24 am (UTC)Also, I see you suspect Sam's memories were fake too. Methinks it was an Elaborate Angel Conspiracy as I've rambled about in my journal, it was probably to divide the brothers so that they say yes.
I'm still mourning the ring and bracelet ;_;
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 07:47 am (UTC)Like you said in your journal, I just can't see Sam not having good memories of Dean...they grew up in each other's pockets.
I'm really worried that they're ditching all the jewelry and no one is going to fish the amulet out of the trash.
I'm also mourning the bracelets...I wrote a whole fic about the bracelets and it's my frickin' favorite fic of mine! :-P
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 04:15 am (UTC)I watched all of S5 in like a week so I totally didn't notice the ditched jewelry... maybe you should include that in your "if clothes could talk..." collection. After all, Sam has what? The one bracelet, while Dean has the Amulet, his ring, his S1 bracelet (which I assume was cut off with the rest of the stuff he was wearing post-car crash), and his S2-beyond bracelet (some kind of beaded thing).
The only thing I noticed was the Amulet and the weird thing is, unlike 99% of fandom, I don't think Sam fished it out... *shrugs*
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 05:55 am (UTC)I might add accessories to the clothing series...we'll see. If I do a post a day for the next 18 days or so, then I'll be done all the clothes from S1-S5...and then I'll have all summer with nothing to do :P
Plus, it'd be pretty easy, because I would just have to find the episode each piece of jewelry disappeared in.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:28 am (UTC)There's companion books?!
I actually was massively spoilered for the amulet-being-trashed moment about a year before I actually saw the ep (I'm avoiding S6 spoilers) so it wasn't as much of an emotional impact than it would've been otherwise.
Even when I saw the scene, I just couldn't see Sam fishing for it. I think Sam knew that this was Dean breaking apart, letting him grow up instead of carrying little brother around his neck all the time. I think Dean hung on to the amulet as kind of a manifestation of KEEPING SAMMY SAFE. And once he threw it away, it was Dean starting to let Sam grow up, make his own choices and realizing he can't hold on to his little brother forever because Sam's an adult. And he can't make those choices or decisions for Sam anymore. And I think it was a way of Dean really trying to find his own identity, as jacked as it all is.
Also? I think if Sam hung on to it, he'd have given it back to Dean in SWAN SONG -- as a reminder of their bond, their childhood, whatever, before hurtling himself (along with Lucifer) back into the cage... and I just don't see it as being realistically feasible that it'd be in the Impala or in Sam's pocket still waiting for that right moment.
You need to add accessories. Basically, they're all in place from the PILOT on (with the exception of Dean's post-car crash bracelet, which appears in ELAC, I think....) and all you need to do is find where it disappeared. The Amulet's crazy easy... as is Dean's S1 bracelet.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:41 am (UTC)Yes, I should do accessories. I'll do them after I finish the clothes. Like you said - it'd be easy.
I both agree and disagree with you about the amulet. Yes, I think Dean getting rid of it eventually helped him to break out of the role he had given himself and become his own person...but that isn't why he got rid of it. He got rid of it because it was supposed to be a symbol of Sam's love for him - Dean had just seen that what Sam loved most in the world was being AWAY from Dean...therefore the amulet meant nothing to Dean anymore - the amulet felt like a lie. Dean stopped believing that Sam loved him, stopped believing that Sam needed him...and so like all spurned lovers, Dean rejected Sam too. You can't break up with me, because I break up with you! :P He threw it out to hurt Sam.
But, I also agree that the amulet WAS a symbol of Dean's protective role in Sam's life...a role that Sam had chosen Dean for instead of their Dad (who was originally supposed to be given the amulet). John had disappointed Sam, so Sam gave the gift to Dean...who had never disappointed him. So, yes, it was sort of a yoke for Dean...and I do think that when all was said and done, it's better that Dean can be his own person without a constant reminder of his protector-role...and, I think, ultimately, a relationship is stronger when it doesn't require physical symbols to give it meaning.
And yeah, basically, since the amulet didn't appear before the S5 arc ended. I'm of the opinion that it's gone for good....and I've made peace with that.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:54 am (UTC)Same here. The minute SWAN SONG ended and there as no amulet, I chalked it up being lost to some landfill.
True -- Dean was feeling positively JILTED at the end of the episode. To get it back after seeing that none of Sam's "greatest hits" featured him -- regardless of what we believe, Dean didn't actually see them -- he was really really hurt. And he wanted to hurt Sam as much as he'd been hurt. I do think the Amulet still meant something and it killed him inside to throw away but he was so hurt by everything else that it just seemed to lose what it stood for -- it was just a trinket. And a useless one at that.
It's true -- Sam essentially appoints Dean as his protector, however unintentionally or inadvertently, the minute he gives Dean the amulet intended for Dad. And Dean accepts it completely, wholeheartedly, and willingly. And I think even though Dean bore it happily, contentedly, even through the early seasons, it kind of became his main identity. And then in S4 we see how it becomes more of a burden -- even as early as S2, Dean complains he's tired of it all. So as much as I love(d) seeing it dangle between his pecs, I think it's healthier for Dean. He was able to, without the amulet, allow Sam to make his own judgement and say Yes to Lucifer. He hated every moment, it went against his grain, but he still was able to restrain himself and let Sam do it... but he was still there at the bitter, bloody end for his brother.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-13 06:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 03:10 pm (UTC)I was also flailing about the amulet. Dean ditching it is very symbolic to his feelings of Sam. And even after everything that he'd seen, even after Sam's memories, i would think that he still loves him. And throwing that amulet away is NOT the way to go.
Also, i thought that maybe the memories of Sam are real, and if it had gone longer, i'm pretty certain that Dean would be in them. It's Dean.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 07:47 pm (UTC)But yeah, I think you are right about the memories...I mean, when Dean told Sam his first memory was "that fourth of July we burnt down that field" Sam knew exactly what he was talking about...and Sam was so happy in Dean's memory, there's no way that's not also a good memory for him.
I just want Sam to fish that amulet out of the trash so that when Dean realizes the mistake he just made, he can get it back.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 09:19 pm (UTC)Actually, I was thinking that too. Dammit those boys are too pretty for their own good!
I'm really worried that Sam isn't going to hang on to the amulet. I'm really worried that it's just going to disappear like Dean's ring and bracelet.
He better pick it up! He can give it back to Dean next Christmas after they stop the world from ending.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-02 09:52 pm (UTC)I just know that next episode there's probably not going to be any mention of it...so we won't know if Sam picked it out of the trash or not. But if he didn't, I'm seriously going to cry.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought dead-Sam was beautiful. :-P Those boys really are gorgeous.
no subject
Date: 2010-04-03 01:16 am (UTC)I don't think we have seen the last of it, but I agree, they probably won't mention it for a couple of episodes. =(
no subject
Date: 2010-04-03 01:54 am (UTC)In the meantime, I will just sit here and worry :-P
no subject
Date: 2010-04-03 02:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-04-03 07:57 pm (UTC)