Marvel ramblings
May. 11th, 2019 03:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
hells_half_acreAlright, so it's been a couple of weeks and I've THOUGHT about things, and so I'm going to talk about them... even though I promised myself that I wasn't going to do this.... so, just ignore me.
So, just as a caveat: I'm still not a fan of Endgame because it still uses a few narrative devices that I just don't like. No fault of theirs. They just aren't to my tastes.
But, things that have changed after reading some fan discussions.
Steve Rogers' "Retirement" in Endgame
What's changed:
I'm feeling less violent hatred towards Cap's conclusion because initially, I misunderstood and thought he went to HIS universes past and lived with Peggy and just laid low for 70+ years while his best friend was being tortured elsewhere. And that was so anti-Steve that I was horrified. BUT, many fans have rightly pointed out that by their own established rules of time travel, Cap would have actually lived with Peggy in an alternate universe - where who the hell knows what he did for those 70+ years. He could have really fucked some shit up (in a good way) and so that's pretty dang awesome to think about. AND, my problem of him "abandoning" his friends in THIS reality is actually saved by the fact, as rightly pointed out, that he DID come back - just because he's old, doesn't mean that he's dead. Also, he literally has a de-aging device, if he wanted to have the same life span as his BFFs again, he could do it in secret, or just continually shave off a year every year and be "old man Steve" until everyone he loved caught up with him.
What hasn't changed:
I still think that his ending in Civil War was way more powerful as an end to the Captain America arc (ignoring the end credit scene where Bucky refreezes himself). But it all depends on what you think Steve Rogers' arc IS. We know Tony's arc - it's someone going from selfish to selfless. From cold to loving, etc. Steve's arc is a little harder to pin down - but I always saw it as parallel with Bucky's arc, only a less extreme version...which is why their stories are told together.
Steve is a soldier, turned into propaganda (CATFA, eventually disillusioned by war (end of CAFTA and CAWS) and unable to find a way back home because he doesn't know how to NOT fight (AOU, CACW). Steve has been fighting his entire life and doesn't know how to stop, and powers greater than him have turned that into a way to control him. (Similarly, Bucky is a soldier, disillusioned by war, who does not want to fight but is loyal - and than that loyalty is usurped from those that deserve it and turned against him, causing him to be trapped forever as a soldier without a will of his own.)
It's only in CW that Steve takes a stand against that control and learns to let go of the propaganda of "Captain America" and live instead as Steve Rogers again.
It's a MORE powerful ending, because Steve is still healthy and in his prime and COULD continue to be a soldier (and he DOES leave that door open in case of emergency - ie: because there was still another 2 Avengers movies in the works - that Tony could call him back in as a friend and Steve would come.) Steve retiring after probably spending 70+ years fucking up (in a good way) another universe isn't as powerful because Steve has obviously reached a physical age that prevents him from fighting, rather than CHOOSING not to fight. In Civil War, it's a clear choice that Steve Rogers' personal principles and friendships are more important to him than being a soldier/Captain America.
Basically, Steve's arc is the opposite of Tony's... Steve has to go from detrimentally selfless to selfish (but in a good way.) He has to learn that fighting for the sake of fighting just leaves you miserable and that some battles are best won by laying down your sword (or shield) rather than picking it up.
Anyway, that's why Civil War (minus Bucky's end-credit scene (or include it, but then also include his end-credit scene in Black Panther)) is still going to be my headcanon end to the MCU Captain America arc. And Infinity War and Endgame are going to remain well-financed fanfiction.
Tony
No opinion changed here. I mean, he had a good arc. It's a good arc. As much as I absolutely hate death as the end of a story, I have to admit that it's a good one. I think, less so the Infinity Saga and more so this has been the Ironman Saga, as all movies (even CACW) have been more about progressing Tony's story in preference to any others. Like I said, Tony's whole arc is about going from selfish to selfless - and there's nothing more selfless than giving your life to save your friends, family, and the entire universe.
BUT, I still don't have to like it... and yes, maybe it's just because one of my favourite genre's of fic for the past X months has been "Tony Stark becomes Peter Parker's surrogate Dad", but that's VALID. And I would just like to preemptively thank all those fanfiction writers who will hopefully continue to write those fics in the future.
I do find it kind of hilarious that, judging by the latest trailer for Spider-man, they basically skipped over Peter's origin story so that they could "Uncle Ben" Tony Stark. So, we still get a whole movie of Peter Parker dealing with grief through dedication to vigilante justice.
Natasha
Still kind of low key mad about this too. Similar to Tony though, I recognize that it's a good scene, and probably really fitting for the character's arc too. I just have personal issues that get my back-up about it... mainly, that as a single woman with no children, I'm kind of tired of it being constantly implied that my life is valued less. Even though, I have to admit that if I were in some sort of weird situation where I had to choose between my life and my buddy's, I probably would also think of his kiddos and figure he should probably survive so that I don't have to be responsible for a bunch of crying children... instead, I'd be responsible for crying adults because people love ME TOO, thank you very much. Fuck society.
Professor Hulk
Nah, still don't like it. Sorry, I'm WAY too big of a fan of dualistic characters to get behind a healthy integration. The exception, of course, being characters like Derek in Teen Wolf. I don't know why I can get behind healthy in-control werewolves, but not weird Bruce/Hulk hybrid, but that's just the state of things. You can't account for personal taste.
Thor
Still hate this too. Ragnorak was the best ending for Thor's arc EVER (and Loki's) and I refuse to live in a universe where Heimdall is dead. So, Thor's arc ends with Ragnorak (no end credit scenes) and everything that comes after is well-financed fanfiction that I can disregard, like I disregard the fics where Thor only eats pop-tarts and Clint lives in the ceiling vents for unknown fandom reasons.
Seriously, Thor's arc is all about learning how to be a good ruler. He accomplishes that in Ragnorak. It's glorious. His arc in IW/EG turns him into joke and then has him abandoning rule (again) to Valkyrie, and while that's cool for Valkyrie, it sucks for Thor.
The Guardians
I'm probably gonna wait on Guardians 3 before I call this one. I may end the MCU with Guardians Vol. 2, we'll see.
Sam
I AM jazzed about Sam becoming Captain America. I've heard that some fans are mad that Bucky didn't get the shield, but Sam was set-up from the jump to be Steve's successor "I do what he does, just slower" and because we never saw Bucky's recovery, he doesn't have enough of a post-Winter Soldier arc yet to be ready for the Captain America mantel. More than that, I think seeing how much society had made Captain America into propaganda, I think Steve made the right call in "How do I fuck up their all-american propaganda machine THE MOST" - and he made the right call.
Clint
Matt Fraction's Clint Barton is still the best Clint Barton. No offense to family-man Clint Barton and Jeremy Renner's work. I've already been headcanoning Clint different since before Ultron (including making him look more like his comic-book self and less like Renner - because in the comic's he's like a rough-around-the-edges Chris Evans, but Chris Evans is already Steve Rogers, so I understand why they case Renner.) Man, I wonder who I would cast as Fractions' Hawkeye... that's a tough one... I don't know enough actors. (Quick Google later - maybe Canadian actor Chad Faust, but without the receding hairline... or, dare I say, it Chad Michael Murray but with unkempt hair and no beard, though I know he's been making a living playing snooty douchebags in recent years, so it might be hard to picture him as a former circus performer who is perpetually down on his luck.) Or if you wanted ridiculously handsome Clint - this guy: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/96/1b/44961b2957b9c0ccae90c6ac77941a22.jpg
Anyway, this is all to say that while it's cool that they showed Ronin... I'm already living in a different universe with a different Clint.
The Future....
I'll have to decide later if I want to watch Spider-man Far From Home or not. Again, I really like living in a universe where Tony slowly falls in parental love for Peter and ends up quasi-adopting him. So, watching a whole movie with Peter going around grieving Tony would be super sad to watch. So, we'll see.
I figure Sam is going to be Cap in the Falcon and Winter Soldier show? If so, I'll just headcanon that Steve is living in some nice walk-up in New York and they go visit him between missions. I do hope that show is good, since I love those actors and characters and the dynamic they came up with for them.
ANYWAY, those are my thoughts... basically, I'm still where I was before - deciding that Civil War/Home-Coming/Ragnorak/Black Panther are the last movies in Phase 3, and IW/EG are well-financed fanfiction that I can happily ignore.... BUT, I'm a LITTLE more charitable in the reasons WHY I'm deciding to do that. And a little more willing to admit that, except for a few instances (Cap's "retirement" which is mostly just nitpicky on the HOW), it mostly just comes down to personal taste rather than bad writing.
So, there we go. OPINIONS SHARED.
My god, I've done NOTHING with my day so far and it's already after 4pm. The only thing I HAVE to do today is watch 2 movies and I haven't even done that. (They're rentals due back tomorrow - and yes, I still rent movies from a movie rental place).
So, just as a caveat: I'm still not a fan of Endgame because it still uses a few narrative devices that I just don't like. No fault of theirs. They just aren't to my tastes.
But, things that have changed after reading some fan discussions.
Steve Rogers' "Retirement" in Endgame
What's changed:
I'm feeling less violent hatred towards Cap's conclusion because initially, I misunderstood and thought he went to HIS universes past and lived with Peggy and just laid low for 70+ years while his best friend was being tortured elsewhere. And that was so anti-Steve that I was horrified. BUT, many fans have rightly pointed out that by their own established rules of time travel, Cap would have actually lived with Peggy in an alternate universe - where who the hell knows what he did for those 70+ years. He could have really fucked some shit up (in a good way) and so that's pretty dang awesome to think about. AND, my problem of him "abandoning" his friends in THIS reality is actually saved by the fact, as rightly pointed out, that he DID come back - just because he's old, doesn't mean that he's dead. Also, he literally has a de-aging device, if he wanted to have the same life span as his BFFs again, he could do it in secret, or just continually shave off a year every year and be "old man Steve" until everyone he loved caught up with him.
What hasn't changed:
I still think that his ending in Civil War was way more powerful as an end to the Captain America arc (ignoring the end credit scene where Bucky refreezes himself). But it all depends on what you think Steve Rogers' arc IS. We know Tony's arc - it's someone going from selfish to selfless. From cold to loving, etc. Steve's arc is a little harder to pin down - but I always saw it as parallel with Bucky's arc, only a less extreme version...which is why their stories are told together.
Steve is a soldier, turned into propaganda (CATFA, eventually disillusioned by war (end of CAFTA and CAWS) and unable to find a way back home because he doesn't know how to NOT fight (AOU, CACW). Steve has been fighting his entire life and doesn't know how to stop, and powers greater than him have turned that into a way to control him. (Similarly, Bucky is a soldier, disillusioned by war, who does not want to fight but is loyal - and than that loyalty is usurped from those that deserve it and turned against him, causing him to be trapped forever as a soldier without a will of his own.)
It's only in CW that Steve takes a stand against that control and learns to let go of the propaganda of "Captain America" and live instead as Steve Rogers again.
It's a MORE powerful ending, because Steve is still healthy and in his prime and COULD continue to be a soldier (and he DOES leave that door open in case of emergency - ie: because there was still another 2 Avengers movies in the works - that Tony could call him back in as a friend and Steve would come.) Steve retiring after probably spending 70+ years fucking up (in a good way) another universe isn't as powerful because Steve has obviously reached a physical age that prevents him from fighting, rather than CHOOSING not to fight. In Civil War, it's a clear choice that Steve Rogers' personal principles and friendships are more important to him than being a soldier/Captain America.
Basically, Steve's arc is the opposite of Tony's... Steve has to go from detrimentally selfless to selfish (but in a good way.) He has to learn that fighting for the sake of fighting just leaves you miserable and that some battles are best won by laying down your sword (or shield) rather than picking it up.
Anyway, that's why Civil War (minus Bucky's end-credit scene (or include it, but then also include his end-credit scene in Black Panther)) is still going to be my headcanon end to the MCU Captain America arc. And Infinity War and Endgame are going to remain well-financed fanfiction.
Tony
No opinion changed here. I mean, he had a good arc. It's a good arc. As much as I absolutely hate death as the end of a story, I have to admit that it's a good one. I think, less so the Infinity Saga and more so this has been the Ironman Saga, as all movies (even CACW) have been more about progressing Tony's story in preference to any others. Like I said, Tony's whole arc is about going from selfish to selfless - and there's nothing more selfless than giving your life to save your friends, family, and the entire universe.
BUT, I still don't have to like it... and yes, maybe it's just because one of my favourite genre's of fic for the past X months has been "Tony Stark becomes Peter Parker's surrogate Dad", but that's VALID. And I would just like to preemptively thank all those fanfiction writers who will hopefully continue to write those fics in the future.
I do find it kind of hilarious that, judging by the latest trailer for Spider-man, they basically skipped over Peter's origin story so that they could "Uncle Ben" Tony Stark. So, we still get a whole movie of Peter Parker dealing with grief through dedication to vigilante justice.
Natasha
Still kind of low key mad about this too. Similar to Tony though, I recognize that it's a good scene, and probably really fitting for the character's arc too. I just have personal issues that get my back-up about it... mainly, that as a single woman with no children, I'm kind of tired of it being constantly implied that my life is valued less. Even though, I have to admit that if I were in some sort of weird situation where I had to choose between my life and my buddy's, I probably would also think of his kiddos and figure he should probably survive so that I don't have to be responsible for a bunch of crying children... instead, I'd be responsible for crying adults because people love ME TOO, thank you very much. Fuck society.
Professor Hulk
Nah, still don't like it. Sorry, I'm WAY too big of a fan of dualistic characters to get behind a healthy integration. The exception, of course, being characters like Derek in Teen Wolf. I don't know why I can get behind healthy in-control werewolves, but not weird Bruce/Hulk hybrid, but that's just the state of things. You can't account for personal taste.
Thor
Still hate this too. Ragnorak was the best ending for Thor's arc EVER (and Loki's) and I refuse to live in a universe where Heimdall is dead. So, Thor's arc ends with Ragnorak (no end credit scenes) and everything that comes after is well-financed fanfiction that I can disregard, like I disregard the fics where Thor only eats pop-tarts and Clint lives in the ceiling vents for unknown fandom reasons.
Seriously, Thor's arc is all about learning how to be a good ruler. He accomplishes that in Ragnorak. It's glorious. His arc in IW/EG turns him into joke and then has him abandoning rule (again) to Valkyrie, and while that's cool for Valkyrie, it sucks for Thor.
The Guardians
I'm probably gonna wait on Guardians 3 before I call this one. I may end the MCU with Guardians Vol. 2, we'll see.
Sam
I AM jazzed about Sam becoming Captain America. I've heard that some fans are mad that Bucky didn't get the shield, but Sam was set-up from the jump to be Steve's successor "I do what he does, just slower" and because we never saw Bucky's recovery, he doesn't have enough of a post-Winter Soldier arc yet to be ready for the Captain America mantel. More than that, I think seeing how much society had made Captain America into propaganda, I think Steve made the right call in "How do I fuck up their all-american propaganda machine THE MOST" - and he made the right call.
Clint
Matt Fraction's Clint Barton is still the best Clint Barton. No offense to family-man Clint Barton and Jeremy Renner's work. I've already been headcanoning Clint different since before Ultron (including making him look more like his comic-book self and less like Renner - because in the comic's he's like a rough-around-the-edges Chris Evans, but Chris Evans is already Steve Rogers, so I understand why they case Renner.) Man, I wonder who I would cast as Fractions' Hawkeye... that's a tough one... I don't know enough actors. (Quick Google later - maybe Canadian actor Chad Faust, but without the receding hairline... or, dare I say, it Chad Michael Murray but with unkempt hair and no beard, though I know he's been making a living playing snooty douchebags in recent years, so it might be hard to picture him as a former circus performer who is perpetually down on his luck.) Or if you wanted ridiculously handsome Clint - this guy: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/96/1b/44961b2957b9c0ccae90c6ac77941a22.jpg
Anyway, this is all to say that while it's cool that they showed Ronin... I'm already living in a different universe with a different Clint.
The Future....
I'll have to decide later if I want to watch Spider-man Far From Home or not. Again, I really like living in a universe where Tony slowly falls in parental love for Peter and ends up quasi-adopting him. So, watching a whole movie with Peter going around grieving Tony would be super sad to watch. So, we'll see.
I figure Sam is going to be Cap in the Falcon and Winter Soldier show? If so, I'll just headcanon that Steve is living in some nice walk-up in New York and they go visit him between missions. I do hope that show is good, since I love those actors and characters and the dynamic they came up with for them.
ANYWAY, those are my thoughts... basically, I'm still where I was before - deciding that Civil War/Home-Coming/Ragnorak/Black Panther are the last movies in Phase 3, and IW/EG are well-financed fanfiction that I can happily ignore.... BUT, I'm a LITTLE more charitable in the reasons WHY I'm deciding to do that. And a little more willing to admit that, except for a few instances (Cap's "retirement" which is mostly just nitpicky on the HOW), it mostly just comes down to personal taste rather than bad writing.
So, there we go. OPINIONS SHARED.
My god, I've done NOTHING with my day so far and it's already after 4pm. The only thing I HAVE to do today is watch 2 movies and I haven't even done that. (They're rentals due back tomorrow - and yes, I still rent movies from a movie rental place).
