hells_half_acre: (Crowley)
[personal profile] hells_half_acre
Book Club tonight! So doing this a little later than usual - hopefully it doesn't take me too long, 'cause I gotta work tomorrow!

Review of the The Fifth Season: Really good book for strong characters, diversity, great female protags, and realistic relationships - but too many dead kids, and since it's only book one of The Broken Earth Series, it doesn't resolve and that's frustrating if you don't have time to read more than the one book.

Anyway, once again you get sober Alix, because I had to drive to book club, so no booze for me! But you still get rushed poor notes, so hopefully this will still be entertaining ...

THEN keeps us well informed.

6 months ago in Andover, MA.

Our teaser death is a woman getting killed in her home, from a ghost reaching up through her bed and crushing her insides. These are my notes:

Demon in the closet? Ghost? Scary everything? I hate suspense. Dude, you don't have to turn on the light to hand something up - just reach in until you hit the bar and hang that crap.

Ugh, seriously, the suspense is killing me. This is why I don't watch horror movies.

Whoa! That's an interesting death though! Never seen that before.


SAM! in the present day.

Dean tells us that they have no leads on Kelly and that they have  "No idea when Lucifer's kid is going to pop, if it hasn't already." - which is interesting, because timeline-wise we know that it's been around the 8-9 month mark then since Lucifer jumped out of Vince, otherwise they wouldn't be confused as to whether the kid had been born. I guess they don't know how long it took from Lucifer to go from Vince to the President.

Dean thinks maybe Mary would want to join them on the ghost hunt, so then we cut to Mary.

She's using weird BMoL gadgets (I kinda prefer my old UKMoL name for them, but I realized last week that EVERYONE else in t-he fandom uses BMoL, so I figured I'd conform. You can pry Sassy from my cold dead hands though, there's no way I'll use Sastiel when Sassy

And she's with Mr. Ketch.

She answers Dean's call, but then lies to him - telling him that she's in a hotel recuperating from the whole Ramiel thing. (I thought she called him Rajiel for a moment there, but I'm too lazy to go back to check.) "Payperview magic fingers the usj." Awww, she's her son's mother. Also, she's lying to Dean - oh Mary, they really do come by it honestly. Awww, but she tells him that she loves him.

Then we cut to Crowley - with Lucifer. Ugh, just let him die show. I'm sorry guys, I know I'm supposed to only do positive reviews, but yarr...

Yeah, so, I really hate this Lucifer storyline and it's getting harder and harder to pretend I don't. Or, not that I was really pretending, but I was doing my best to see the positive side of the storyline and going along with the ride like *shrug* whatevs! But I gotta admit that it REALLY annoys me. I want them to get rid of him, because it completely rends Sam's sacrifice and suffering at the end of S5 pointless. Like, oh yay, Sam bought the earth 7 more years before some idiot brought Lucifer back and destroyed everything again. And the more times they have to defeat Lucifer, the more ridiculous it's going to be... and I just read a quote like YESTERDAY about this sort of thing, and how bringing your big bads back after you defeated them ON SCREEN completely undercuts the emotional impact of your hero's journey. YARRRRRRRRRRRRR.... (I'm a pirate today, to fit with the nautical theme to this episode!)

Anyway, to top off the fact that they brought back a villain that I want to STAY F*CKIN' DEAD - they have it be that CROWLEY was the one that mucked up Rowena's spell so that instead of going into the cage, Lucifer was instead sent back to his discared vessel from 9 YEARS AGO (7 by show's bad timekeeping) and undecomposed it and then MADE IT BETTER so that it could be a final home for Lucifer.

At least the writers f*cking KNOW they're idiots, because Lucifer TELLS US THAT CROWLEY'S AN IDIOT! YES YES HE IS!

Back to the Winchester's, because I gotta balance the negative with the positive, and I always love those Winchesters...

Dean knows Mary's lying! Sam doesn't think so. Oh man... things will come to a head sooner or later! (Turns out it's going to be sooner!) I like the fact that Dean's like "nope, I know Winchester lies, and she was telling me Winchester lies!" And actually, she was! She lies like Sam, I just realized... Sam always lies with this super like... breezy voice. "Why are you asking me these questions? Don't you know that life is fine and normal and full of fluffy bunny rabbits?" "We're standing in a fire, Sam" "Right right, I meant, you know, besides this fire... that I totally wasn't lying about." Anyway, so yeah, Mary continues to be an excellent mix of Sam and Dean.

Snow! They filmed this in December then. We were snowed in from around the 7th to... well, mid-January. It all just turned to ice and no one has snow tires in this city.... and the city has like, one friggin snow-plow. Despite being in Canada, Vancouver is actually a temperate rainforest, which a lot of people (who write J2 snowed-in fic) don't seem to realize. If precipitation can be rain, 9.9/10 it's going to be rain.

Someone is killing teachers. Just run dude!!
^That's me talking to the cub-scout leader dude. ("Timber Scouts") Like, seriously, if you're in a creepy bathroom at night and weird stuff is happening, just get the heck out of there. I'm thinking maybe men should also be forced to take those "how to avoid sexual assault" classes that they force girls to take in HS, while the boys learn... actually, WAIT, the boys did weight-training that week, and I never f*cking got to and I LOVE WEIGHT TRAINING. Oh my GOD, MY HIGHSCHOOL WAS SO SEXIST! I should do a bunch of weight training and then ask a guy for the time while he's walking alone at night, and then just haul off and punch him when he looks down at his phone or watch, and he won't ever see it coming, because he never took that class that told me never to look down at my phone/watch if some dude asked for the time. HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES!

Uh, I feel like I've gotten distracted. Let's go back to the notes...

Ghost!! Really cold ghost!

So, poor dude is dead.

Cut to the next day, Sam and Dean are checking out the museum. According to Sam, museums are notorious hot-spots for ghost activity. He calls them adhd ghosts though, I'm not sure what he means by that... like, do they get distracted by the exhibits? I feel like if I were a ghost and ended up tethered to a museum, I might lose focus from my revenge plot too, because I love museums.

Then we cut to Kelly, who is still preggos, and only like... 6 months tops? Unless that kid is small, Kelly's not about to pop anytime soon. Anyway, the waitress is an angel, which is why everything she says is way to punny for not knowing that Kelly is preggos with Lucifer's kiddo.

Back to the museum. We find out that the exhibit includes things from a ship called The Star, which sank in 1723. And that rings bells for Dean, because that was Gavin's ship! And it's hilarious, because I knew Gavin was going to be in this episode ahead of time, and I still forgot by the time I sat down to watch the episode.

Lucifer and Crowley - Lucifer continues to laugh at the plotline that I hate.

And Crowley doesn't know that the baby wasn't aborted. Like, did you really not follow up on that at all? Did Castiel never mention it when he was trying to get you to free Sam and Dean? Did you never clue in to the fact that if Sam and Dean were arrested, then aborting the baby fell to Cas, and Cas is NOTORIOUS for FAILING EPICALLY.

Actually...while we're on the subject - could Cas and/or the angels not just... like, touch her forehead and abort that sucker? Can they only heal by touch, not get uteruses to reject foetal implantation? (Can you tell that one of my jobs is working on a women's health app? Hahaha)

And then Dean calls Crowley and Crowley's talking about his business in the same room as Lucifer. So, now Lucifer knows Crowley has a kid, on top of everything else. Listen, I REALLY hope that Crowley had some sort of mind-game in mind when he took the call in the room, because IT JUST MAKES HIM LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT! And I HATE IT when formerly clever villains suddenly do idiotic things just for plot purposes.

Ugh... I'm starting to realize who probably wrote this episode. SIGH. (For those that need the reminder: My brain shuts off when there are words not-pretaining to time or location on the screen and I never ever read the credits.)

Back to more positive things... uh, well, not so much, because now there's another school group leaving the museum, this time with two female teachers. And then we see a locket get slipped into one of their pockets - so, whomever this ghost is, they're hitching a ride. I guess that's what they did to the teacher in Andover too... how did they get, OH, no, the locket was ADDED to the exhibit 6 months ago, which means it was probably donated after the teacher died. Intererting. I'm getting ahead of myself though...but hey, you just saw me work through a potential plothole in real-time, stream-of-consciousness style.

Cut to Rowena! Who the Winchester's have called in since Crowley won't help them out. They bribe her into helping them for the sole reason that they figure she'll want to meet her grandson. It's a dangerous game, but it works!

Meanwhile, Kelly's being stalked by angels. But she's rescued, by a yellow-eyed demon, which could only mean that this is Dagon. Dagon can apparently EXPLODE angels...like, she doesn't even had a weapon?! She just explodes them! Explodes isn't even an transitive verb, but I'm using it as one! Language evolution! (I keep wanting to use explodieren, but I don't even think that's a word in German... it's just fun to say. Language evolution in two languages!)

"Come with me if you want to live" - pretty badass though, too bad she's a baddy. But man, I'm loving this actress.

Dagon talks a good game! Seriously, my notes aren't lying. Dagon gives Kelly a speech about how Lucifer's not a bad dude, and angels are dicks, and you almost want to buy it even though you know Dagon's a nasty too and lying! This actress is amazing and really owns the part, like... she just commands attention, which is what you want in a villain. Couldn't we just have HER as the only big bad and leave Lucifer alone?! I'd be happy with that! Yellow-eyed demons are hard to kill unless you have magical weapons, and you can tie in the whole Colt business (as I'm sure they're going to) and you don't need any thing else! (Okay, sorry, I promise I'll stop ranting about it.) MY MAIN POINT IS THAT THIS ACTRESS IS GREAT!

Gavin! Gavin arrives by bus, and apparently the Winchesters pulled the ol' "your dad is dying" trick. I loved when they come clean and Gavin yells Help! to the guy walking by, like... I just love these tastes of how people are legit afraid of the Winchesters (for good reason).

They bring Gavin to the museum and at first he throws out a red herring, mentioning there was a teacher aboard the Star. Then he looks through the exhibit listing and finds a locket that belonged to his girlfriend Fiona Duncan. Then the sad story of how she begged him not to go, and probably smuggled herself on board thinking that he was trying to leave without saying goodbye. Sam and Dean agree that a broken-hearted woman who finds herself alone on a ship probably would end up being pretty pissed off and turn into a ghost. Gavin is pretty dismayed that the girl he loved is a ghost now. Then they go to find the locket, only to discover that it's missing.

Then we get a scene between Mary and Mr. Ketch out in the snow. And it's GORGEOUS. Geez, that's the thing with Snow, it really is beautiful, but if your city doesn't have the infrastructure for it, you end up shaking your fist at it, since you can't get anywhere or do anything.

Mr. Ketch telling Mary to "disengage" from her sons. Ugh. Sleezy.
^ So, yeah, Mr. Ketch is all like "you're beautiful when you hunt" and "hunting is where you belong" and "you need to disengage from your sons" and "the British Men of Letter's is all the family you need." or whatever... and the whole time he's doing the slowly-step-closer-until-he's-standing-too-close thing, and it's SUPER SKEEZY.

The Winchesters find out that the last school group throught the Museum was from the Pembroke Day School for Girls.

Dudes, if it's a Day School, why're the teachers there so late at night? Like... do the TEACHER's live there? Maybe... maybe they do. Also, I totally ship these two teachers.

CREEPY STUFF. They're attacked by the ghost and one of them gets a hand through the chest and MOST LIKELY doesn't live... the other barricades herself in a room and the Winchesters rescue her all last minute like.

Then they have Gavin call to the ghost to confirm it's Fiona.

Yup! It's Fiona... and she was apparently found, ridiculed, and then raped by the crew, ugh. Oh, and the teacher that was onboard victim-blamed her... so, that's why she's getting revenge on all teachers.

After the Gavin and Fiona's chat, everyone sits down to figure out how to solve the situation. They're worried that burning the locket will just mean that Fiona will attach herself to other pieces of the Star at the exhibit... and really, REALLY, the best fix for EVERYTHING - including bringing her victims back to life - would be to send Gavin back to the 1700s so that he can die on the ship, and they can close this pesky time-loop, that they DO need to close before the end of the series, because otherwise Bobby's soul goes to hell (Gavin needs to be dead in order for Bobby to get out of the demon-deal he made at the end of S5, for those who might not remember.) Gavin agrees with this, because he knows he doesn't belong here, and also he'd prefer to spare Fiona the nightmare of her final days and years of ghosting. Also, he figures that they'll go to Heaven and then they'll have eternity together - aww, cute.

Crowley shows up to object! Rowena argues in favour of sending Gavin back though, saying that Gavin is "not like us - he believes in things." Which is kind of sweet, but Rowena must have some angle here.

Crowley argues that Gavin called him, so he must want to be saved - but no, Gavin called him to say goodbye. Crowley raises his hand to do something, but Rowena freezes him, and he can't follow through.

The Winchesters take Gavin back to the bunker and do the time-travel spell, tweaked by Rowena in order to send him back. Dean admits that it's "a tough one" because they know they're sending him to his death, even though he's a good guy and doesn't deserve it. But he goes... gotta close that loop! (Even though I'm sad to lose Theo Devaney, I met him at one of the VanCons and he was super nice...also, I think he lives in my neighbourhood?! Or used to, anyway.)

Mary comes back to the bunker! And she comes clean about what she's been up to!

Sam is not happy. Yay for Sam having reasonable emotions! Seriously, this is just excellent acting on Jared's part, I'm sure, but Sam's face here is just perfectly betrayed - and it's really the first time this season that you see Sam have emotions that have to do with HIS reaction to things and HIS emotional life. He's been really great this season about cloaking his emotional life in care for others - like, yes, he got teary at Mom, and that was awesome, but thereafter he was like Mr. Reasonable, Mr. The-Fact-That-Mom-Needs-Space-Is-Understandable-And-Fine, and that's great... but it's also nice to see him be NOT automatically understanding and fine... but not in a "I don't want to understand!" way, more of a "THIS IS GOING TO TAKE ME A FUCKING MINUTE AND I DESERVE THAT FUCKING MINUTE." Ykwim?

Mary accuses Dean of giving her "the face" because DAMN RIGHT HE IS. And it's also great to see him give her the face on BEHALF of Sam, because you know that's what he's doing. And Sam even lists what they did to him... and like, yeah, how DO you work with the people who tortured your son? Though, they do claim it was their "rogue" agent - which is I'm sure what Mary tries to explain to them in the montage that follows...

But first, we cut to Rowena, waiting for a bus. Crowley shows up to ask her why she let her grandson go to his death. And she tells him that it was revenge for Crowley making her kill Oscar, the "son" she loved more than him. So, it was revenge. Now, of course, I'd argue (and I have - if you go back and read my rewatch S10 entries) that ROWENA is solely to blame for Oscar's death, as she sacrificed him for the power of the books and the potential power of the Darkness. But I get it... I mean, it's way easier to blame other people for our horrible short-comings than it is to blame ourselves.

I love this song! Hate this Lucifer plot line! And the Winchesters are mad at mum!
^This is a montage to that song Play With Fire, by the Rolling Stones.

Rarrrr... and Lucifer's in conversation with Dagon.

So, things are nicely set-up for whatever happens going forward, I guess! We've got 3 Sinister Bad Guys, just because 1 apparently isn't enough, even though they got away with only having 1 for MOST OF THE AWESOME SEASONS. But again...WHATEVER. Just because I don't like Lucifer, doesn't mean I get to complain about everything. I mean, I DO like Dagon so far... so that's awesome. So, yeah, that's my negative and postive. Negative=Lucifer, Postivie=Dagon and the actress who plays her.

Always remember when commenting folks! You've gotta do a positive for any negative, otherwise I FORCE YOU TO! Because I want us all to enjoy this journey, and we're not going to be able to do that if we're all complainy-pants all the time.

Next week's promo:RETURN OF ALPHA VAMP! OOO I LIKE HIM, and that's saying a bunch, because I REALLY HATE VAMPIRES. Looks like Mary convinces Sam and Dean to do a job with the BMoL - and my guess is that it won't go particularly well.


As per usual, let me know what you thought in comments - remember the negative/positive rule - and as always, forgive my spelling.

Date: 2017-02-24 08:54 am (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
Ok, I'm going to come straight out and say, I did not like this episode, it wasn't as bad as many of the others these two have done, but it definitely didn't live up to the rest of the season, which (other than the stupid Lucifer plot) I have been liking. (can they maybe fire these two, and just give their eps to the new guys instead?)

Uhm, back to the positive.

I love, utterly love Dagon, and I love that they have her being smart. sure, she could have been stupid, try and capture Kelly and keep her locked up or something like that. But then she'd be stuck having to make sure she didn't try and escape.

Instead she becomes Kelly's rescuer and protector, meaning that if something happens (whether it's angels, demons or the Winchesters), Kelly will come running towards her, instead of away from her. And since she was honest about being a demon, the Winchesters won't be able to turn Kelly against her by revealing the truth.

It also means that unless she feels that Kelly gets in the way, that she's got someone to look after the baby once it's born, instead of having to clean up its diapers, or trust a demon to do so instead.

Like I said, smart smart demon.

Love the actress playing her, love her introduction, and I like it even more that we've already got the Princes of Hell exposition out of the way in the previous ep, so we can get right to enjoying the character herself. (esp. since I don't want these two writers anywhere near any ep that involves exposition of major season plot points.)

Another positive points, the show actually remembering and reminding us that Rowena is a villain, and a damn nasty one at that, who excels at playing innocent and manipulating people into doing what she wants them to do.

I just really wish that they had the Winchesters remember all the things that Crowley did, you know, like murdering Sarah, (and other people the Winchesters saved), just to get the boys' attention, torturing Kevin, Locking Mrs Tran up in a locker for several months, ...

I often see people complain that Sam and Dean are 'overly harsh' to Crowley, but then I remember that helpfulness aside, he is not just a useful demon, he's an actual monster.
(though I do think that Gavin's death is going to seriously bite the Winchesters in the ass, because he sure as hell won't forget)

Date: 2017-02-24 09:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
AGREED ON ALL POINTS! ALL OF THEM!

(which is actually pretty rare for you and I, since we tend to have different taste in some things.)

But yes, ugh, nepotism. I really wish Ross-Leming wasn't married to Singer, because then I feel like they WOULD have left years ago - like, I don't think writers get anything like tenure, you know? There's no reason for them to still be there other than nepotism and successive showrunners feeling like they HAVE to renew their contracts (or however the heck writer employment works)

STICKING WITH THE POSITIVE THOUGH - They did indeed do a fantastic job with Dagon's approach, as you say, so bravo to Ross-Leming+Buckner there... and I think the director did a fantastic job of framing her in a heroic way, rather than a villainous way, so the audience is carried right in with Kelly's perspective on Dagon... that we're fully aware she's evil, but we fully understand why Kelly decides to trust her (or at not actively try to escape her).

Date: 2017-02-24 11:48 am (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
What shocks me the most, is that not just do they keep getting work, it's that they keep getting paired together to write.
Hasn't anyone in the spn writing staff ever figured that maybe, just maybe, they'd do better paired up with someone else? You know, sometimes when writers are paired together, they can work out one another's issues, and be better together than each is seperately. But with these two, it's like they make one another worse.

Date: 2017-02-24 05:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, on that I have no clue either. Part of me wonders if maybe their strengths lie elsewhere than execution - like, maybe they're constantly coming up with great ideas in the writer's room, and what they really need is another writer to ghostwrite for them. Who knows... whatever needs to happen, it's not happening, for reasons that we are not privy to. :P

Date: 2017-02-24 02:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borgmama1of5.livejournal.com
My first reaction after this ep ended (knowing who the writers were) was: this did not suck!

These last 2 eps have been really moving the mytharc forward while also incorporating show backstory--in a non-contradictory way!--so now I have to hold my breath that they give us a decent resolution to all the problems...I still love this show, I just no longer have full confidence that they won't disappoint me...

I really appreciated that they took the time to explain a) how Crowley ended up with Luci; b) what Crowley did to safely (he thinks) secure Luci with the special chains, and c) how the heck Nick's meatsuit is still around. While my friend complained about the heavy-handedness of the exposition, I was just happy we got believable explanations for stuff that otherwise would have made me (and many others) crazy trying to justify.

I really like the Mary/BMoL vs her sons conflict and I was thrilled to death that she came clean in this episode instead of the secret dragging on longer. Ketch is just too creepy for words particularly since we know how cold-bloodedly he killed innocents and Mary doesn't...and of course his attempt to wean her away from her boys immediately prompts her to try and reconnect with them, because Winchesters are ornery like that :)

And the boys' faces when she told them what she was doing--Jensen and Jared--especially Jared--had perfect facial reactions. (I wonder if anyone else heard Mary's 'don't make that face' as something she said to 4-yr-old Dean when he didn't want to eat his vegetables or something?)

And then Sam referenced what the BMoL did to him...my heart did a sad happy dance to hear him acknowledge it...

Yep, Mary's behavior pattern fits right in with the whole family dynamic. I'm not getting the dislike of her that is flying around fandom--she's acting exactly like a Campbell/Winchester. She was only a saint posthumously...

Rowena's twist at the end was fantastic--I'd been rolling my eyes at her becoming another watered-down villain (seems to happen to all the bad guys who end up partnering with the Winchesters)--and even better was how specifically directed her plot was. This was personal...so even though she's been helping the boys lately, clearly she will still throw them under the bus if it serves her purpose. And her motive elevated her character from cartoony to having more layers than we thought. Great character development (and well-written speech!)

You're bored with Luci--I'm bored with baby nephilim story. Thosugh I do agree Dagon made a very charismatic first impression.

Next week looks interesting!

Date: 2017-02-24 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, I actually didn't mind the flashbacks either, and while I thought Crowley was an idiot and hated the plot-line, I didn't mind the flashback explaining explicitly what he did and what happened and why Lucifer is still Nick. I was worried last week when they showed him, because a)that throne room isn't in Hell, it's in Fall River, MA, and b)if it's not in hell, then Lucifer can't be "projecting" the image of Nick like he was in cage episodes last season, he needs a vessel to be on earth.

Yep, Mary's behavior pattern fits right in with the whole family dynamic. I'm not getting the dislike of her that is flying around fandom--she's acting exactly like a Campbell/Winchester. She was only a saint posthumously...

Yeah, I think it's a mix of things - 1)Popular fanon (inspired by Dean's Djinn dream and her posthumous sanctification) was that Mary would be the OPPOSITE of John, that had she lived, the boys somehow would have been saved from the horrible fate of motels and distant parents, and so now fans think that they're "writing her wrong" because she doesn't match up with a collective headcanon. 2)Misogyny - I hate to say it, but it's true in this case as it is with other mothers - men can be imperfect fathers and still be forgiven and liked (see John) whereas women MUST be perfect mothers and are not allowed to have human faults. Anything that isn't giving 100% of self to children is seen as an unforgivable act. It's why the insult you here most often directed at mother's or potential mothers is "selfish" - abortion? selfish. Not breastfeeding? selfish. Sticking the baby with a babysitter for a day so you can go to the spa with your friends? Selfish. Locking yourself in the bathroom and ignoring your kid for 5 minutes just so you can shit in peace - selfish!

People don't even realize they're doing it, because it's become so ingrained in society that mother's are solely vehicles/support for their children... it's why actresses are always asked how they balance motherhood and work. Whereas father's are just expected to balance fatherhood and work, motherhood is viewed as something far more all encompassing - something that leaves absolutely no time for personal pursuits.

And...rant over. But you can basically see that playing out here with Fandom reaction to the fact that Mary is prioritizing her own emotional state over the emotional state of her ADULT SONS. It's internalized sexism.

Personally, I LOVE the fact that they have Mary being a full-fledged person, and not just a "mother" - more than that, I'm happy that they're writing her in a way where you understand why her and John got along. We've only seen their domestic/lovey personalities in the timetravel episodes... but you also see that their harder personalities are also well matched, as they're both fiercely independent, a little hardheaded, and plenty BAMF.

Agree about Rowena and everything else you mentioned!!

Date: 2017-02-24 06:50 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
There's also the fact that in general, unless a female character is either a child, gay, or portrayed in a 'motherly' role, that fandom will hate most female characters until they die, and then they hate the show for killing them. Never wondering that their hate against these characters while they're around, might be the reason the show doesn't hesitate to kill them in the first place.

Crowley could be manipulative as fuck, and fandom loved him for it, compared to Ruby who was hated on first sight, and never even given a chance. Hell, the same goes with Castiel vs Anna...

Date: 2017-02-24 07:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yup. The internalized misogyny is strong with fandom.

Date: 2017-02-24 07:04 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
And the same goes for racism really.

I mean,don't get me wrong, I like Cas well enough. But there have been recurring characters that I liked a hell of a lot more than I do him, before and after his first appearance.

Yet because he's played by a white male actor, and the first one who looked attractive enough to be paired with one of the boys, he became an instant favorite.

(I still don't get why Dean/Victor isn't more popular in fandom, Dean and him had tremendous amounts of chemistry, and don't even get me started on how hot Sam/Uriel could have been, if it had ever caught on as a pairing. It's not like Cas was that much nicer to Dean when he first showed up)

Date: 2017-02-24 07:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oh man, yeah - I see that with a lot of other fandoms too. Star Wars: The force Awakens is particularly bad, because you DO have a lead black male (who I desperately love) and yet the majority of fics centre around the white villain(s).

What makes it worse (and clearly racism on the show level as well) is that I read somewhere that originally it was Cas who was supposed to be secretly Lucifer aligned, not Uriel, and then they switched it because Misha was such a hit.... of course, I can't remember where I read that now, so take it with a grain of salt, just on the off chance it wasn't an official thing (though my gut tells me it was.)

I'm STILL mad about them killing Victor. He could have been SO AWESOME as a new Hunter with a history with the Winchesters and everything... or they could have done a spin-off like they tried to do with the cop-character in Bloodlines, where you see what it's like for a Hunter who actually DOES work in Law Enforcement/FBI. Sigh.

I'd like to think that both the misogyny and the racism is getting better with time, not worse; but, with the state of the world, I'm a little worried that I've been wrong this whole time and it's just me personally getting better while the rest of the world sinks further into the bog.

Date: 2017-02-24 07:28 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
Not sure if that bit about Cas going evil instead of Uriel is true, don't think I've heard that one before. (though I wouldn't be surprised if it were)

I did hear that originally, it was Cas who was supposed to die instead of Anna, only because Cas became so instantly popular, they kept him around and gave him the storyline that was originally supposed to go to Anna.

Date: 2017-02-24 08:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, that's what I heard - only with Cas and Uriel... so, maybe these rumours got crossed somehow? One is true and the other isn't? Who knows!

I mean, it's a known fact that originally Misha was hired for just three episodes and the rest were a wait-and-see - so it could be that they really just had no idea where they were going and considered multiple storylines for him.

The fact remains, however, that the storylines they picked for him favoured him living over dying, while the storylines they pick for POC or women favour them dying over living.

Date: 2017-02-24 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
Dean/Victor - or basically just keeping Victor around as a hunter and a friend for the boys is one of my great regrets. Victor was awesome! I LOVED Uriel too (even if I can't see him paired with anyone - not sure why!)... Boy, this show has killed off some fecking superb characters over the years.

Date: 2017-02-24 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
I think Sam/Uriel fills that enemy-to-lovers trope that people like (people other than myself, I hate that trope :P ... in order for me to pair anyone with Uriel, he'd have to go through a whole bunch of seasons of "humanizing" his rough edges, like Cas did. It wasn't until S8 that I started to be able to get behind destiel. Otherwise, I'd only pair him with other angels, not humans.)

For the most part though, you probably can't see Uriel paired with anyone because he's an older chubbier man. Our minds are more conditioned to ship younger skinny people, while making larger older people asexual.

Date: 2017-02-24 08:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
Oh no, I don't think it's how Uriel looks, it's his character! i just couldn't picture him being amorous at all, it didn't feel right. And he wasn't chubby - he was built like a brick wall! LOL

Date: 2017-02-24 08:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, I was trying to think of a better word than chubby, but all I could come up with was not-lean. :P

But yeah, I still think the people who CAN and DO pair him, are people who like the enemy-to-lovers thing, or villain pairings... where I just do not!

But, if you picture him going through the same personality changes as Cas (or similar), I could totally see pairing him after all that, when he's essentially a different character than when he started (like Cas is now.)

Date: 2017-02-24 08:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
Yep, some morphing of the character - some vulnerability - then I could see that kind of passion. But then again, some folk pair Crowley with various characters and I just can't see him as a sexual being either. I've got friends who think Mark is sooooo sexy and I'm just -ew, no! Which is silly because obviously he is a sexual being, because everyone is (unless as you point out, they are asexual). It's just some things work in my head and others don't.

Date: 2017-02-24 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, we tend to do that with people we aren't personally attracted to, or aren't conventionally beautiful (like... if you were a lesbian woman, you might not be sexually attracted to Brad Pitt in Thelma and Louise, but you would still be able to look at him and say "yes, that man is beautiful")... it's why we tend to treat the elderly like they have no sex lives, and think ew, no! when people ask us to consider the fact that the elderly DO have sex lives. They're no longer of child-bearing age, so you're like "nope, not attractive - no sexy times there!" It's instinctual, not conscious.

And everyone has their kinks of course - some people just REALLY love villain ships... think of all the loki shippers, and the huge kylo/hux fandom (which, as I mention, is partially born out of racism, but partially about villain-shipping.)

Personally, I really hate villains. I'm supposed to hate them, and I do, so I don't want them to have any sort of happiness, including sex... and I don't find it hot when they have sex, because I'm not attracted to villains, I'm repulsed by their villainous ways! I might be a weird case though, because I'm on some sort of weird part of the ace spectrum that I've never been able to figure out, and personality makes a HUGE difference in whether I find someone attractive.

Date: 2017-02-24 09:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
Personality is definitely the key - I mean my hubby is totally not the kind of man I grew up finding attractive - he didn't have dark hair or dark eyes, he wasn't conventionally handsome, he was (and still is) extremely skinny - but he made me laugh and I was smitten.

I'm now trying to think if and when I've found a villain attractive. Mmm *goes off to ponder*

Date: 2017-02-25 01:43 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
For me a villain has to be on a path of redemption, before I find them attractive.Which is why no matter how much fandom tries to woobify him, I'm just not the least bit into Loki in Avengers fandom.

But then I also really can't stand characters who act like asshole, hence my utter despise of characters like say stiles on Teen Wolf, I hate that guy more than I do Peter, and that's saying something.

And yet, lucifer on the fox show lucifer does hit every single 'yes' button, but he does so, because even though he's a bit of an asshole, he's trying to be better, and is genuinely trying to work on his issues.

Date: 2017-02-25 08:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yes, I'm the same (though you and I differ on our interpretation of Stiles).

They have to be genuinely remorseful and trying to be better before I'll consider liking them enough to pair them up with someone.

Date: 2017-02-24 02:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supernutjapan.livejournal.com
it's also nice to see him be NOT automatically understanding and fine... but not in a "I don't want to understand!" way, more of a "THIS IS GOING TO TAKE ME A FUCKING MINUTE AND I DESERVE THAT FUCKING MINUTE." Ykwim?

YESSSS!!!!!

That's the only scene I really liked this ep. And here is the gif for you as well :D

Edited Date: 2017-02-24 02:38 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-02-24 05:49 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-02-24 08:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
I'd forgotten someone had told me this was the Ross/Lemming duo but I'm glad I had because this wasn't THAT bad. I'm not sure I totally enjoyed it, but after last week, this was reassuringly ok. I don't understand why we have to have Lucifer but I do love Pellegrino's portrayal so I'm hand waving his inexplicable presence in Crowley's chamber of secrets. And nope, I don't think the explanation Crowley gives is good enough - though knowing this was the Duo writing, that now explains that very clumsy exposition.

Dagon - yep, I liked her. She's shaping up to be a strong presence, like Billie was. My jury's still out on Mary but the fact she's come clean with her boys is a big point in her favour.
Edited Date: 2017-02-24 08:17 pm (UTC)

Date: 2017-02-24 08:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
You and I have different taste when it comes to last week's episode - which I think was brilliant. This one is very mediocre in comparison.

But yes, they did do a great job with Dagon, and she definitely fills a gap that Billie left behind.

Date: 2017-02-24 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amberdreams.livejournal.com
We do indeed - last week's just annoyed the hell out of me. LOL

Date: 2017-02-25 01:46 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
I don't know, Billie, for all her threats against the Winchesters, was essentially a good guy. Dagon on the other hand, for me fills the gap that Abbadon left behind.

Date: 2017-02-25 12:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] khek.livejournal.com
I love your reactions.

My first thought at hearing Andover MA, was that Meg Masters was from Andover, so I thought this was going to have a connection to the first yellow eyed demon Azazel(?). But nope. My second thought wa...a sea museum? Andover isn't on the sea! (It's a few towns over, which in Massachusetts is pretty far.) My third thought was that it's the place where the Salem Witch Trials actually happened, so maybe they're trying to make some kind of connection there? Maybe some of this will come into play later, but all my thoughts were unfounded. So far.

Anyway, I agree with you about the Lucifer storyline. Crowley also had to do a whole lot of exposition to bring us all up to speed...which made him look kind of silly. Adding the phone conversation to the whole thing made him look incompetent. Now, when I think about Crowley too hard, I start to really dislike him (Kevin! Sara! Ellen and Jo! Hundreds of innocent people!) But making him look stupid really doesn't work.

On to the good stuff...I loved Sam's reaction to Mary's announcement. Deans too. I don't know why she didn't think it would be an issue. (and I also love that she's such a great hunter.)

I'm not sure where they're going with the baby storyline. I do like the addition of Dagon though. Does anyone else think that Kelly doesn't actually expect to survive the baby's birth? She sounded pretty pessimistic when the angel was throwing all those sly innuendos at her about the pregnancy and the baby coming.

I was kind of floored that Rowena sent Gavin to his death to gut Crowley. I thought she'd like him because he was her grandson and he was kind of sweet. But...nope. Even though she's helped the boys occasionally in the past few months, I guess she still is self-centered and vengeful.

Two mothers hurting their sons, one intentionally, one meaning well, but disregarding feelings. And a third who is about to be hurt by hers. I wonder if that's going to be a theme?

Playing with Fire was such an appropriate song to end with!

Date: 2017-02-25 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Well, Dean's first guess was a witch - so maybe he was thinking the same thing as you!

I don't know why she didn't think it would be an issue.

I think she knew full well that it was going to be an issue - which was why she lied for so long and was so stumbling when she finally decided to tell them.

Does anyone else think that Kelly doesn't actually expect to survive the baby's birth? She sounded pretty pessimistic when the angel was throwing all those sly innuendos at her about the pregnancy and the baby coming.


I thought so too!! I just forgot to say - but yeah, it fully sounded like Kelly expected the pregnancy to kill her.

Two mothers hurting their sons, one intentionally, one meaning well, but disregarding feelings. And a third who is about to be hurt by hers. I wonder if that's going to be a theme?

I'm hoping so! I keep thinking about how S1-S11 really explored fatherhood on and off, so it'd be nice to get some discussion about motherhood now. It's either that, or this is all really weird coincidence - but I doubt it. A lot of the storylines are centering around mothers in some way - and we even have a female YED to match the male one we had when we were exploring fathers.

Date: 2017-02-25 01:53 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
I actually just did a check on Dagon, and the mythical origin of the character. And I don't know if the spn writers realized this, but Dagon is apparently an ancient Mesopotamian fertility god, which is interesting, considering her interest in Lucifer's baby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon

It's probably a lucky coincidence, but still...

Date: 2017-02-25 08:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oooo.... cool. I'm thinking it's probably not a coincidence, but perhaps it's because I know that in my own writing I research the meaning of names before I use them.

Date: 2017-02-25 10:22 pm (UTC)
bratfarrar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bratfarrar
Oh man, just had your previous s12 recap recommended, and had to friend you because I'm in some serious need of positive discussion of the show. These are fab. And thank you for reminding me of this moment:

Gavin! Gavin arrives by bus, and apparently the Winchesters pulled the ol' "your dad is dying" trick. I loved when they come clean and Gavin yells Help! to the guy walking by, like... I just love these tastes of how people are legit afraid of the Winchesters (for good reason).

Because I love these tastes too--I'll have to add this to my list of them. :)

Date: 2017-02-25 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Hey! Welcome! Glad you enjoyed :)

If you're looking for more of my reactions/reviews - I've got them in two separate tags - there's "quick reaction" which gets you these, and then there's "rewatch s_" which gets you my rewatches by season. Just since you're new and I've had people get confused about my tagging system in the past. ;)

And yes! Man, I love those moments. I think another one of my favourites is when Charlie sees them in the crowd at the LARPing event. It's such a great moment, because it's not that she's fearing THEM so much as what their presence MEANS.

I really love everything that hints at the fact that the Winchesters, in themselves, can be considered legends or even omens of fortune reversals.

Anyway, glad to have you around! As you've already seen around here, I'm sure, I like liking things - so I always keep everything as positive as possible, while still being honest, of course. :)

Date: 2017-02-25 10:40 pm (UTC)
bratfarrar: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bratfarrar
As you've already seen around here, I'm sure, I like liking things - so I always keep everything as positive as possible, while still being honest, of course. :)

Pretty much my exact mindset for watching the show, so it should be a good match. :D

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