hells_half_acre: (Confused!Dean)
[personal profile] hells_half_acre
I've been sick for the past week. But I am now feeling better! Yay! I can tell that I'm feeling better because at one point today I was suddenly like "My god, my apartment is a mess... also, why am I still unemployed? And also, why haven't I finished that fic yet?!"

Anyway, once again, this is just me apologizing for the delay...

BUT... if anyone wants to help me with an upcoming piece of fic writing....


1. How do you think the back-end of S9 could have been done differently to both give Gadreel his quasi-redemption (or at least set him on the path to it) WITHOUT killing him?

2. If Gadreel lived, what do you think he would be doing in S10 if anything?

3. If Tessa hadn't been killed, do you think Metatron's plan to frame Castiel for the suicide bombings would have still worked? (I'm thinking yes.... which makes me more pissed off about Tessa, since her death didn't even have a point to the PLOT.)

Okay, I think that's all... let me know your thoughts in comments!

Date: 2015-04-10 10:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ratherastory.livejournal.com
I have nothing to say except REAPERS AREN'T ANGELS, GODAMMIT, and I will never be over that. >:(

Seriously, Gadreel was already having doubts about Metatron. They could easily have had him change his mind while still occupying Sam's body and have him release Sam of his own volition and apologise for fucking with his free will (thus setting an example for Dean, but I digress). Mutation was doing sketchy shit from the start.

No idea what he'd be doing in Season 10, since I stopped watching. Yes, I'm still bitter.

Date: 2015-04-10 11:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ramblin-rosie.livejournal.com
THIS. In fact, Gadreel could have changed his mind *before* he could do something unforgiveable (i.e. kill Kevin) and come clean to both Dean and Sam. Even if he then decided to become a double agent, he would still have avoided crossing the line. There was *no reason* for him to have fallen in with Metatron when he *knew* Metatron was trying to usurp God's throne.

Date: 2015-04-10 07:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
I completely agree, but I'm trying to change just the BACK half of the season, not the front half, so I still need him to "kill Kevin" - ie: he needs to be at odds with the brothers and back in his original vessel before I start changing his plot. I've figured that bit out, what I haven't figured out is how he can still come back from that without dying.

Obviously, having doubts is key, which I agree Gadreel should have been having (and acting on) WAY earlier, but in what form? Should he have turned double-agent sooner and come to them? Or do you think he would think he had burned that bridge and feel trapped until Castiel reached out to him? And then what? How could he turn the tide and help make up for his mistakes without killing himself for the cause?

Date: 2015-04-10 09:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ramblin-rosie.livejournal.com
I think he should have turned double agent sooner--at the latest, the time (in "Meta Fiction"?) when the boys had him captured and he was trying to goad Dean into killing him. Maybe the Mark hasn't yet taken such a hold that Dean can figure out *why* Gadreel wants to die, or maybe Sam is present at a point where he isn't in canon and cottons on. As for the "then what," I'm not at all sure--though maybe if the energy from an angel's death is required to keep the portal open, Gadreel could kill Metatron instead of himself.

Date: 2015-04-10 10:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Hmmm.... possible possible... I still need to happen fairly late in the season, but I could always set the ball in motion sooner.

Unfortunately, because I don't want to diverge TOO much from canon, I've got to keep Metatron alive.

I basically just want to have the same storylines, but less death.

Date: 2015-04-10 05:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ratherastory.livejournal.com
And by "Mutation" I meant "Metatron." Autocorrect, I know what I am doing, okay?

Date: 2015-04-10 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
As I understand it, Mutation isn't that far off. :P

Date: 2015-04-10 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Don't worry, Reapers aren't angel. Hence why I need to know if anything would have been different if Tessa wasn't in that episode (and it's pretty clear the answer is no.)

And I agree with everything else, but I need an alternative for the END of the season, not the middle - so I need an alternative redemption with Gadreel in Tahmoh's body after already killing people for Metatron.

Date: 2015-04-10 11:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thursdaysisters.livejournal.com
Gadreel could be an excellent source of knowledge about the Mark of Cain (he protected his parents), or he could be wildly paranoid about Sam's safety and convince him to steer clear of moc!Dean, or Gadreel could walk into the Bunker and see the Angel lightboard and be like "Oooo you know what this *really* does?"

Date: 2015-04-10 07:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Wait, did the Cain and Abel story happen BEFORE the snake? I always assumed it happened after, since before the snake their lives were supposedly idyllic and lovely... which having murderous sons doesn't really fit in to that.

I like having him wildly paranoid about Sam's safety (mainly because I always wanted Sam to have an angel like Dean does)... also, that's hilarious.

Date: 2015-04-10 08:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thursdaysisters.livejournal.com
Yeah Gadreel wouldn't have met Cain, BUT any angel high-level enough to protect Eden might have information leading to God-level magic :-)

Date: 2015-04-10 12:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ramblin-rosie.livejournal.com
OT, while I'm here: your S9 timeline and the clothing catalogue are proving *very* helpful for my own S9 AU--it's a crossover in which timelines differing between worlds is a plot point, and there's one scene where Cas borrows a shirt from Dean. Just wanted to thank you for making those resources available to the rest of us. :)

Date: 2015-04-10 07:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Glad I could help! Sorry it's taking me so long to get the S9 clothes up! Being sick the past week did not help things. :P

Date: 2015-04-10 01:42 pm (UTC)
ext_3548: (Default)
From: [identity profile] shayheyred.livejournal.com
2. I can see Gadriel becoming a suicide bomber and ultimately taking out Metatron to show Castiel et al that he is, in the end, with them. Then Castiel, Dean and Sam would muse about how he saved them from Metatron, but couldn't escape the nihilistic mentality in the end.

Date: 2015-04-10 01:44 pm (UTC)
ext_3548: (Angel)
From: [identity profile] shayheyred.livejournal.com
And yes, I too am bitter about Tessa. That was the most egregious moment in Season 9.

Date: 2015-04-10 07:37 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-04-10 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yes, but I'm trying to SAVE Gadreel... so, I'd prefer him not to go out in a blaze of nihilism. :P

Maybe he tries and is just horribly injured and has to go recuperate in Malta or something though... I could work with that I suppose...

Date: 2015-04-10 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowsong26.livejournal.com
The way I see it, there's...I think four or five points where you can change Gadreel's story?

First: He comes clean to Dean early on--either pretty much right after they make their bargain, or around when he has Dean kick Cas out of the bunker. That's probably the happiest ending for everyone concerned, but, especially since it's so soon, it changes everything...

Second: He has misgivings as soon as he gets Metatron's orders to kill Kevin, and comes clean to Dean--or, internally, to Sam--at that point. He can stay under with Metatron, which might be fun to explore (then again, I'm overly attached to well-intentioned double-agent characters, sooo...), and you could probably save Kevin (if that's what you want), but it would probably nix the MoC plot, so I don't know how much you need that for your story.

Third: They get more out of him when torturing him in 'Road Trip,' before he leaves Sam for the bartender. This still kills Kevin. The Mark storyline could go either way from this breakpoint, I think, but it gives Gadreel a longer time, before the narrative climax, to start building up to his redemption. This would also be the best time to draw the 'trusted the wrong person and let evil into the world' parallels that I kept seeing but the show never followed up on during this season/arc.

Fourth: He and Dean find some kind of common ground in 'Meta Fiction.' Maybe something about Cain--if Gadreel knew him before things went south. IDK, I think it could work, but I'm not 100% sure how. Or possibly Cas reaches out to him sooner, based on something that changed slightly in his storyline, or something he and Gadreel managed to wordlessly communicate somehow during the prisoner exchange...IDK.

Fifth: Everything goes as in canon up through the finale, but Gadreel finds some other way to get out of the cell--for example, lying dormant behind the bartender, since this part of Heaven isn't supposed to hold humans, so if Bartender is in control, he might be able to finagle something. Problem with that is it might make it harder to convince Hannah to help them get to Metatron's office and the tablet...

There's probably more, but that's what I can think of at the moment...

Date: 2015-04-10 10:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Okay, since I need to still have the events of Holy Terror happen and I still need the MoC to happen (which I'm not sure would happen if they talked to Gadreel immediately in Road Trip), then really the only scenarios that are possible are the Forth and Fifth....

Right now, I've been trying to go for a version of the Fifth, but I don't think just using the bartender would work... I could just have Hannah trust Castiel from the beginning, and NOT lock him up, I suppose... hmm... yes, THAT might work. Maybe there's still some sort of fight for the office, but it's more punches and blades than it is suicide bombings...

Thanks for the help!

Date: 2015-04-11 12:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borgmama1of5.livejournal.com
Just my opinion but I think he and Cas would become friends and they would ride around together. But every time they'd run into Sam or Dean it would be very hard.

Date: 2015-04-11 12:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
... awkward. :P

But yeah, I'd imagine that if Gadreel lived, once Hannah left, Castiel would probably start going to Gadreel for help with things. Though, if Gadreel was still trying to make up for his mistakes, he might not be very willing to help Cas if it seemingly went against Heaven's orders (such as Cas and Sam abducting Metatron in the last episode).

Date: 2015-04-11 05:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ursula-patch.livejournal.com
I'd have to re-watch the scene to see if it would work, but what if Gadreel just told Hannah his story since the fall. A heart-felt, tearful confession if you will. Lying to Dean about his identity. Working "with" the Winchesters for good. How Metatron convinced Gadreel that following him would be his redemption. What Metatron had him do to prove his worth. His misgivings of Metatron. The fact that suicide bomber angels were angels that Gadreel recruited for Metatron and weren’t following Castiel’s orders. And since the angels following Castiel left because Castiel wouldn’t punish Dean, remind Hannah of their mission. A mission he failed long ago and doesn’t want to fail again.

It would never work for TV, takes too much time. But for a story, something like that might work. Maybe. *shrug* Then once Hannah hears Gadreel’s whole truth, she could help get them into Metatron’s office. After all, she once believed in Castiel’s point of view. And we know in Season 10 she returns to it.

If Gadreel lived? I see him working in Heaven somehow. Since he’s been locked up “forever” he wouldn’t have the corruption that the others seem to be suffering from. Or maybe setting up an appeals process for angels thrown in jail.

I have no idea about Tessa. Her death gives the angels following Castiel a reason to hate Dean, which leads to their leaving. But I hate that they used her that way, especially given reapers aren’t angels.

Date: 2015-04-11 05:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Hmmm, that's true. I maybe wouldn't have to have the same urgency and need to "rush" as the episode did. I could take a little more time with it.

See, with Tessa, Metatron hadn't even factored Dean killing her into the plan - so, I don't think the angels necessarily even NEEDED that to abandon Castiel... they USED that as a way for Castiel to display his loyalty to them "If Metatron is telling the truth, then let us punish the human..." whereas, if they hadn't done that, there wouldn't necessarily be that immediate test, but the angels could very well have still left, believing Metatron. After all, Metatron's original plan was JUST the suicide bombers, he didn't even need the addition of Castiel protecting a murderer.

So, yeah, my point is, I also hated that they used Tessa that way - and also especially because Reapers aren't angels. Which is why it's a major thing that I'll be "correcting" in the fic. I just have to make sure I can sell how Metatron's plan still works even without the final ultimatum.

Date: 2015-04-11 06:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ursula-patch.livejournal.com
Maybe you can argue that time in the jail moves slower than the rest of Heaven or Earth. *shrug* After all, we know time moves faster in Hell. At least for Dean it did. What was it, 30 years for the one year on Earth? (I should check your time-line.)

I guess my point in Gadreel in telling his story to Hannah is that we trust him because we've seen what he's gone through (at least a limited view). If she could understand, she'd be more likely to trust him as well.

You're right about Metatron's original plan, I didn't think of it that way. Although I'm not sure if Castiel would have lost every angel following him without the ultimatum. A majority perhaps, but I'm not sure if all of them would have left.

Date: 2015-04-11 07:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
10 years in Hell was a one month on Earth (at least for Dean). I've seen people argue that Sam's Hell was longer, but they base that on a VERY throw-away line by Sam who was more than likely being hyperbolic. Personally, I think the ratio was the same for both of them, so Sam spent approx. 180 years in Hell. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

Now I'm wonder if I even NEED the angels to all abandon Cas for my plot to work.

Stuff to think about, anyway... thanks for the input!

Date: 2015-04-11 09:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ramblin-rosie.livejournal.com
Thought that just occurred to me (and you're certainly free not to use): if you have Gadreel switch sides earlier, maybe Metatron uses the fact that Cas is keeping company not only with the Winchesters but also with Gadreel as part of his frame. "Father always said bad company corrupts good character," etc.

Date: 2015-04-11 10:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
That's an idea! I think I want to keep Gadreel's switch late in the season though.


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