The problem with comic book heroes...

[hells_half_acre]

I think part of my reluctance to get into the Marvel fandom is the fact that comic books don't end... and nothing happy ever happens in them. Yes, the hero saves the day, but it's usually at the cost of their own happiness. Their best friends and/or lovers die... or they do, tragically. You need drama to keep a story like that going and the best drama is tragedy.

So, for instance, I've been enjoying Captain America fic recently, but the fic that I'm enjoying is the sort of stuff that would never actually happen in the official story - because it's the fic where everyone is broken and is never going to get better, yet they learn to live with their brokenness and they learn to be happy, and the fic ends with the premise that everything has reached a stage of "as joyful as possible given the circumstances" and it will remain that way until all characters die of old age. Whereas, I already know that depending on what comic-book plot they follow, and, to me, all evidence points to the fact that they are going to follow this one...there's a good chance that Steve Rogers is going to die and Bucky Barnes will become Captain America. And that's not a happy ending, because someone is dead and someone must live without them.

I like things that end. Ironically, it was part of the reason I got into Supernatural - I was convinced that it would end after S5, and even if it ended in tragedy (which, at the time, Supernatural had all the markings of a clear tragedy), I would be fine with that, because at least it would have a definite end to the tragedy - and the tragedy would not continue forever. Comic books just keep going and they are ALWAYS tragic and nothing ever works out, not completely. And even if one chapter ends on a happy note, you know the next chapter is going to destroy that happiness... and I don't think I can take that when there's no clear end to the misery in sight.

Comments

[franztastisch]

This is very true. It's a joke, but also true, that superhero comics are soap operas, because they totally are. BUT the good thing with Marvel is that you can pick and choose. For instance, I have discovered that I'm not really interested in superheroes. So the current run of Hawkeye is absolutely perfect. And I think that story will have an ending, even if it's left open enough for other people to come in and write more about that character. But that's fine because, like with Supernatural (for me) I can stop. If you wanted, you could just follow MCU. It would have one - much more satifying, I have found - clear storyline, and yeah they might follow certain plots, like the one you mentioned above, but at least you can feel pretty safe in the knowledge that they probably won't fuck it up too badly. And, unlike with many of the deaths in the comics, they will be final (one hopes), they will have emotional resonace and the other characters around them would deal with it like people. Or at least, that is the impression I get the more Marvel films I watch.

Anyhoo. The Marvel fandom is very pick and choose. I mean, I'm in the Marvel fandom and I ignore about 95% of it. So I totally understand if you're reluctant.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yeah... I don't know. I guess there's always the point where I can bow out and say "well, I'm stopping here and I'm going to pretend that everything that comes after this doesn't exist." And I've done that before with things - Torchwood, Supernatural (in a weird way, where I basically treat S6 onward as an optional official AU), the last half of the movie AI... there are others but those are my main ones.

I DID really enjoy the editions that I read of the current Hawkeye run, and I need to find a new source for those and read more, because the writing style in that series is less drama/tragedy-based and more "mundane of the extraordinary" which is something I love.

But yeah, MCU is PROBABLY the safest, and any trailers would warn me if I perhaps shouldn't watch an upcoming movie if I don't want to live in a world where certain people are dead.

I'm also REALLY interested in the upcoming Agent Carter TV series!!! But I don't consider that superheroes... that's more kickass woman dealing with sexism in a historical setting and MAN, that sounds so cool.

[la-mariane.livejournal.com]

I read Avengers fanfic without knowing the canon, and it works really well, so you always have that solution :) I did that for the Stargate Atlantis fandom too (I really don't like the TV series but I love the fics writen with those characters).

[franztastisch]

I thik thats another reason MCU would work for you. Cos even if the character died (because c'mon, they're played by actors and they can't go on playing those characters infeinately) I think it would be in a S5 Sam way rather than Mystery Spot Dean way. It would actually mean something (this is why I'm pissed at AoS and the return of Coulson because you've made his death mean nothing and I hate that). AND because it's done in a real world way which means that it's as plausible as it can be within the confines of a comic idea. Hence why Agent Carter is SO FUCKING EXCITING. And why Captain America isn't annoying (which he sort of is in many of the comics) and Hulk works and Thor isn't weird (which he is a bit in the comcis).

Also MCU is easier than the bajillion issues of comics you're missing because you weren't born in the 30s.

I can get you downloads of all Hawkeye issues if you want. :) IT GETS SO GOOD/PAINFULL.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what I'm currently doing with Captain America - though, I may actually breakdown and watch the movies. Hence this post, while I contemplate the path this decision may lead me down....

[la-mariane.livejournal.com]

From what I understand, there are several different story lines with the same characters. I'd just pick a short, already finished one and stick with it, if you need to have a coherent canon.
I know I don't mind when I don't have all of a series' canon (one of my guilty pleasure as a teenager was reading Perry Rhodan, so I got really good at filling in the blanks). Maybe I'd just pick the bits I like in canon and ignore the rest!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and I suppose I CAN handle a death if it's done well. For the Torchwood example, I was fine with Owen and Tosh's death, but not Ianto's. I'm just not sure where on the line the potential death in the MCU would fall.

I had the same beef with Coulson's resurrection. I still haven't watched AoS, though I do hear it's gotten better.

Also MCU is easier than the bajillion issues of comics you're missing because you weren't born in the 30s.

Haha, exactly, I have a hard enough time keeping up with CURRENT media, let alone a 80 year backlog. :P

I can get you downloads of all Hawkeye issues if you want. :) IT GETS SO GOOD/PAINFULL.

Could you?!? I would appreciate it!!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I suppose I do have the luxury of choosing what I want to consider canon and what I want to ignore.

I can wait for the internet to spoil the storylines and THEN decide if I want to see that story or not.

[franztastisch]

Well it depends. For that scenario above, I'm slightly dubious because of 1) Sebastian Stan's ability to act Cap, 2) his ability to follow on from Chris Evans and 3) fans reaction to the leaving of Chris Evans who, let's be honest, is sort of perfect for the role. That being said, we don't know the contract length for Chris Evans and nothing is set in stone anyway. Marvel don't have to use Stan's 9 films. On the other hand, Marvel will keep this going for as long as they can. So... I'll roll with it, trust them and see what happens. Though let's be honest, I could lose interest before it ends. Cos this could go on for decades. :P

Hawkeye. This is updated every issue released, which you can tell by following my tumblr. But you need a reader programme to open them. Do you have one?

Oh, and because I was snooping your convo below. There is no such thing as concrete or coherent canon in Marvel comics. I solve this by just making shit up. And I think this is a fandom where it is really easy to enjoy all the fannish outpouring without actually seeing the films or anything.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Awesome! Thanks! I do have a reader program. I downloaded it when I read the first few hawkeye editions - then I lost the link to wherever I was getting those editions from, and now I can't remember where the reader IS on my computer, but I know I haven't deleted it - so I just have to track down whatever subfolder I stuck it in. :P

Well it depends. For that scenario above, I'm slightly dubious because of 1) Sebastian Stan's ability to act Cap, 2) his ability to follow on from Chris Evans and 3) fans reaction to the leaving of Chris Evans who, let's be honest, is sort of perfect for the role. That being said, we don't know the contract length for Chris Evans and nothing is set in stone anyway. Marvel don't have to use Stan's 9 films.

True, true... maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, and reading too much into Stan's 9 film deal. Based on absolutely nothing (because I haven't actually seen the films yet... but probably will this weekend or next week), I don't doubt Stan's ability to play Cap, though it would, by necessity, be a different kind of Cap... but whether fans would accept anyone other than Evans is another matter altogether.

So... I'll roll with it, trust them and see what happens. Though let's be honest, I could lose interest before it ends. Cos this could go on for decades. :P

Very true... it takes me SO LONG to see movies, it's ridiculous. I really only go to the theatres maybe once or twice a year these days, and so it's all about whether or not my interest holds enough to track them down later.

Oh, and because I was snooping your convo below. There is no such thing as concrete or coherent canon in Marvel comics. I solve this by just making shit up. And I think this is a fandom where it is really easy to enjoy all the fannish outpouring without actually seeing the films or anything.

True. That's what I've been doing with Cap so far, after all.

[franztastisch]

I think you got that from me too, in which case it's called CDisplay, if that helps you track it down.

Yeah, I think the long ad short of it is that we don;t know. And they might just get Stan to be the Winter Soldier all the way through (which in a way would make more sense. Comic readers would be fine with Bucky!Cap but the casual viewer would be very much WTF!?).

Really all I want out of this is a Black Widow film and more Hawkeye. I'm cool with most other things (apart from Ant-Man, still very dubious about Ant-Man).

Considering your track record with films, I'd just stick to reading fic and making of it what you will. They bring out about three films a year. Plus there's TV shows and actual comics and it all adds up. *shrugs* You like continuity. I think it would annoy you not to know all the story available. But that's not my call. And I'm happy to answer any and all questions I can. :P

[caranfindel.livejournal.com]

I don't read comic books and I don't even know what MCU is, so take this for what it's worth (which is about what you paid for it), but I think the problem of someone always dying is inherent in comic books because otherwise, what's the conflict? The same good guy/bad guy, a different bad guy, it all gets old. In a story that doesn't end, you need some new drama to mix things up.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think I may have ended up with a different one though, because CDisplay didn't work on my computron... a quick scan of my files says I have something called "Comic Seer" so I'm willing to bet that might be the one that worked! And hey, I know where it is now!

And they might just get Stan to be the Winter Soldier all the way through (which in a way would make more sense. Comic readers would be fine with Bucky!Cap but the casual viewer would be very much WTF!?).

Yeah, I think I'd prefer if Stan was the Winter Soldier all the way through.

Really all I want out of this is a Black Widow film and more Hawkeye. I'm cool with most other things (apart from Ant-Man, still very dubious about Ant-Man).

SAME!

Considering your track record with films, I'd just stick to reading fic and making of it what you will. They bring out about three films a year. Plus there's TV shows and actual comics and it all adds up. *shrugs* You like continuity. I think it would annoy you not to know all the story available. But that's not my call. And I'm happy to answer any and all questions I can. :P

You are more than likely completely correct. I'll probably just watch the two Captain America films and then go back to my happy fic world. And read Hawkeye, because I like Hawkeye. And I'll watch Agent Carter, because of all the reasons to watch Agent Carter. But that's IT! ;)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

MCU is "Marvel Cinema Universe", I believe.

In a story that doesn't end, you need some new drama to mix things up.

Exactly. That's my problem with things that don't end, and why I prefer things that DO end.

[franztastisch]

Stan as the Winter Soldier works better for me too. He looks so pretty when he's upset. :P

You are more than likely completely correct. I'll probably just watch the two Captain America films and then go back to my happy fic world. And read Hawkeye, because I like Hawkeye. And I'll watch Agent Carter, because of all the reasons to watch Agent Carter. But that's IT! ;)

Oh that is a slippery slope my friend. :P though, for your consideration; Gardians of the Galaxy for the sheer lunacy. (I AM SO EXCITED FOR THIS FILM)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Oh man, Guardians!! I FORGOT THAT WAS MARVEL!

Geeeeeeez... it's such a slippery slope. I will probably have to watch that one too. :P

[franztastisch]

AHA soon you will backslide into lunacy with the rest of us. :D

(You can pretend it's not Marvel if that makes it easier. I don't know where it falls in Marvel continuity yet.)

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

I actually recently got into the Marvel fandom (as far as reading fic goes) just from watching the MCU films. I haven't read any of the comics, and when reading a fic if I come across a character I don't know I just do a quick wiki search. I've learned about some of the comic storylines that way and I get what you mean about all the death (and coming back from "death") and drama that happens. But I think in fic you can just ignore that and search for what you want. And the MCU movies are doing a good job keeping a followable timeline and linking the movies together.

I just saw the new Captain America a couple weeks ago and thought it was great. I hope you post a reaction after you see it because those are always interesting! So you haven't seen any of the MCU movies? I saw Avengers first and that made me want to see others. (I've watched the 3 Iron Man ones, 2 Thor, and 2 Captain America.) Also on imdb it says there is a Black Widow movie coming in 2015--hope it's true! (And I want a Hawkeye movie too! Or for him to be in her movie.)

And I heard about Agent Carter today and I'm excited. I wonder where they're going with it? I hope they do a good job because I haven't heard too many good things about Agents of SHIELD (though that got renewed so it must have something). Obviously it will be back in the forties or fifties, but I'm hoping there might be some flashbacks to the war that may incorporate others we've seen in the first CA movie. I can think of a lot they could include, but I just don't know what direction they'll take.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I hope you post a reaction after you see it because those are always interesting!

Okay, if I do go see it, then I'll post a reaction. I already have the first Cap movie waiting to be watched, but I'll probably maybe wait and do a reaction post to both, if I manage to make it to the theater to see Cap 2.

So you haven't seen any of the MCU movies?

I've seen the (Edward Norton) Hulk, Thor I, Ironman I, and The Avengers, but that's it.

I hope Black Widow gets her own movie too! And I'd love it if Hawkeye was in it, or got his own movie too...or showed up in someone else's movie.

I hope they do a good job because I haven't heard too many good things about Agents of SHIELD (though that got renewed so it must have something).

I heard that Agents of Shield got really good towards the end of the season, once the Cap 2 movie was released and they could include storylines that otherwise would have been major spoilers, I guess. I've heard it said that other Whedon ventures have needed a whole season just to get off the ground and get going, so it could be that AoS was the same and they'll do better from here on out.

Obviously it will be back in the forties or fifties, but I'm hoping there might be some flashbacks to the war that may incorporate others we've seen in the first CA movie. I can think of a lot they could include, but I just don't know what direction they'll take.

Apparently it's going to take place starting in 1946, and follow Peggy Carter as she deals with the men coming back from war and wanting to put her back in the kitchen. She'll be running jobs for Howard Stark, while dealing with sexism, basically... meanwhile she'll be recovering from the loss of Steve, who, of course, is for all extents and purposes completely dead at that point.

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll look forward to your reaction! And if you can maybe try to watch the first Captain America before you see The Winter Soldier--it may give you a more emotional connection to the characters because we do see some from the first in the second (which I'm sure you know the obvious). But if you can't then you can't.

And about Agent Carter--that sounds interesting. Thanks for filling me in on the basics.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I'm definitely going to see the first Captain America before I see Winter Soldier. I already have it on my computer ready to go. I'm more doubtful about whether I'll actually get to see the Winter Soldier, because I still have to get to a theatre to see that - and that's a harder task to accomplish. But, it's still playing at a few theatres in town, so hopefully there will be a good time and place for me to find it.

[claudiapriscus.livejournal.com]

Frickin' LJ changed something and now I can't post anything from firefox...which meant when I forgot that, it ate my giant comment. Grr.

So let me try and hit the main points again:

I really can't say my experience of comics matches your description. You know I've got a low tolerance for angst for angst's sake and the kind of storytelling where everything always gets worse, always, and there's basically no point to anything? Comics...at least in my experience, which is pretty much just Marvel, don't do that. They tend towards hope rather than despair. Oh, there are a few titles, and a few authors, but it always comes back round again. Daredevil, which apparently was one of the most misery-soaked titles around for years, right now is nothing but delight...and that's without sweeping the past misery under the carpet. I mean, sure, there are the fluffier titles (MARVEL ADVENTURES, MY HEART), but what I really like are things like the late lamented FF, which on one level is about a main character's journey through grief following the death of his daughter, about managing to keep going, about the families you find when you need them. And it's heartwarming and joyful and funny with just enough pathos to make those things seem like even greater gifts. The dude's daughter is almost certainly going to be back among the living eventually. That'd doesn't negate the power of the story that was told though. It just means the reunion will feel all the more earned.

Even the most gut-punching moments/stories I can think of, just as the end of Journey into Mystery or the death of Ultimate Peter Parker (almost certainly not coming back) don't feel like angst ex machina. There's a purpose to those stories, and part of that is how they're told, and part of it is what is done with the stories after.

The marvel universe (Well, at least the 616. Ultimates...is another story. With Ultimate-Spiderman as the lone exception) is one in which hope exists and victories and sacrifices matter, even if there are always new villains or the old ones find ways of returning.

[thursdaysisters.livejournal.com]

And that's why there's graphic novels. :-)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Oh man, sorry to hear about your LJ/Firefox troubles. That's SUPER frustrating. Thanks for taking the time to write out the comment again.

Thanks for weighing in with your opinion. As you can tell, my opinion isn't based on me actually READING a lot of comics, because I've been avoiding them due to the above stated fears - so, maybe I just have it all wrong? Maybe things not ending doesn't mean that things are always miserable and without happiness. Maybe I've just been ruined by other media that DID do that, and now I just assume that everything that never ends does the same. Maybe I'm too used to seeing dark things like Batman, where everything is horrible all of the time... and not everything is Batman.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I do enjoy a good graphic novel. :)