hells_half_acre: (Sam strung-out)
[personal profile] hells_half_acre
Back to rewatches! Just three more to go! I feel like I'm dragging myself to this finish line, but at least I'm still moving. I'm going to have to think of a quicker way to do this next year - less words or something. (I just realized that Sam and I are one in these last few episodes...dragging ourselves to the finish line. :P)

Anyway, we rejoin the main plot!

Kevin is still on the boat... or IS he.

Sidenote: I noticed in S9 that Kevin was possibly wearing one of Dean's shirts. So, now I'm wondering if I should have paid more attention to Kevin's clothing this whole time. Sigh... maybe it's something I'll add to my list of things to check out after I finish updating the timeline.

I love how fake!Dean and fake!Sam are just a little off the whole time, and then Sam's "Special K" nickname for Kevin and you KNOW for sure that it's completely wrong... and man, I just love how Jensen and Jared have been doing these characters for so long, and are such good actors, that they know how to act like they're acting... and not in the French Mistake way, but just in this really understated way where even if you didn't already know that Kevin had been kidnapped by Crowley, you'd be like "something isn't sitting right here..."

Crowley: "'Special K', 'Nose to the God-stone' - that's the way Dean speaks. Sam... is more basic, more sincere, remember, I want to distinct authentic characterizations."
Demon: "Yes, sir"
Crowley: "I was born to direct."

- I just love how Crowley knows them so well... and I also love this description of Sam - perhaps because Sam is possibly the most complicated character on SPN and to hear him be described as "basic" entertains me, even if I know full well that Crowley is only describing Sam's speech patterns here. I guess SOME part of Sam has to be simple.

Dean: "Alright, here we go! John's Winchesters famous cure-all kitchen-sink stew. Here ya go! Enough Cayanne pepper in there to burn your lips off, just like Dad used to make."
- Ah, John Winchester... going to the same cooking school as my own father. Actually, that's not true. Our family's "cure-all" was hot and sour soup from our favourite Chinese place...with enough added spice to burn our lips off. It's a shame that I accidentally grew up close to the best Chinese place that I have ever gone to outside of China - no other hot and sour soup has ever compared.

*Sam pushes it away*
Dean: "Should we do the whole airplane-thing with the spoon?"

- Mothering!Dean is kind of my favourite, but this is also a bit painful to watch, I gotta say... because Sam always resents being treated like a kid, even though he totally pushed his food away like a toddler just then, so I think the airplane-spoon comment was warranted.

Dean: "When was the last time you ate?"
Sam: "I don't-"
Dean: *holds up 3 fingers* "Days, Sam. It's been three days!"
Dean: "The bloody handkerchiefs, the fever, the shaky legs. This is not good!"
Sam: "Well I'm not good, and I'm not going to be good until we can start moving again, until I can start the third trial."

- I know that story-wise, they had to go the route they went on this - but I honestly think it would have been interesting if Sam's sickness wasn't leading to an ultimate life-sacrifice, but instead was a result of not doing the trials fast enough. Then the plot would REALLY be about getting Kevin back ASAP, and also would point out how stupid they were to start on a three-task quest without knowing what all three tasks were before the quest.

Another thing that I would have loved, which isn't really related to this scene, and again, they couldn't have done if they wanted to set up for the S9 that they currently have... is to have actually had Dean do the quests with the same consequences. As much as I love doting older brother Dean, I kind of also love it when they reverse that trope and have Sam be the mother-hen.

Not to be negative about the show (but I'm totally going to be for a second here, so forgive me!), but I kind of feel like S6-S8 were all about Dean looking after Sam, even though Swan Song was supposed to establish them as equals. It's almost as if the writers after Kripke were trying to figure out a way to undo his character progression so that they could do it over again? I mean, in all fairness, Kripke's character progression was molasses slow and then all at once, so maybe they just wanted to do it again in a more visible way? I don't know. My point is that I guess I'm in the mood for doting younger brother for a bit.

I perhaps shouldn't have done this rewatch today, because I kind of woke up in a bit of a bad mood this morning. Sorry! I'll suck it up and go back to being cheerful.

Dean: "Trial?! I wouldn't let you start a moped!"
- Hehehehe

Sam: "Those first two trials, they're not just something I did. They're doing something to me. They're changing me, Dean."
- Into what?! (This is the part where I think of that scene in Teen Wolf where Derek and Peter find out what Jackson is turning into and they view that animation of it and both recoil in horror.) Okay, I know, Sam's not turning into anything... but for some reason it just makes me laugh to think of him sprouting wings or something. It'd make a good fanfic anyway. I'm sure someone's done it.

- My little heart is breaking.
- I think Kevin has a really interesting relationship with the Winchesters, because they obviously care for him, but they are two REALLY fucked up individuals, so Kevin doesn't necessarily see that... so, for Kevin, they are these two guys that keep him locked in a houseboat for his own safety and tell him that he's is going to save the world if he helps them - and I guess they're the only ones who give him a possible out - a possible light at the end of the tunnel were one day he might NOT be hunted because he can read God's writing.

Kevin: "I'm sorry... I know it was my job, but I couldn't- I'm sorry."
*Dean shoves books off table*: "DAMN IT!"

- Ugh, my heart... Dean dealing with loss is always horrific... but more than that, I think what really tears my heart out (and probably Dean and Sam's too) is that Kevin's final words were to apologize for failing them. When, Dean is probably already blaming himself for Kevin's death.

Dean *on the phone*: "I know you haven't seen him, Gail, nobody has...."
Sam: "Garth still MIA?"
Dean: "Yeah"

- Ah, I didn't realize that we actually had a point of reference for when Garth went missing. They just talked to him in the last episode. Also, Gail! Yay for another female hunter even though we don't see her. I'm just going to go head and hope that we never see her, and that way she never dies.

Dean: "We should have moved him here."
- Yes, yes, Dean, you should have.


Cas: "You know, I remember when you first discovered it. Before you brewed it, you just chewed the berries. Folktale is true, by the way, you learned it from the goats."
- I love Cas. I love that he's been stationed on earth since the dawn of man. I love that he loves humans. I love that for all he's watched and loved humans, he never got into viewing human pop culture. Probably because everything just felt like a flash in the pan for him.

Ion: "He's using a clever tactic. It's a restaurant called BigGerson's. The humans built hundreds of them, almost exactly alike."
Naomi: "what are you talking about?"
Ion: "It's their sameness. Castiel is using it against us. We try to orient ourselves, but it's like we're in every BigGerson's at once, trapped in a quantum superposition. Now he chooses which to go to next, that's what gives him the edge."

- And with this line, I realize that this was the last episode written by Ben Edlund... and I weep. Why did he have to leave us?! He was my FAVOURITE.
- Anyway, can we talk about how brilliant this is? Because not only is it a comment on chain-restaurants, it's also taking them into the realm of quantum theory... AND on top of all of that, what is giving Castiel his edge is his ability to exercise free will. So brilliant. (Fun-fact as I spellcheck this entry - I do not know how to spell restaurant. I always spell it 'restaraunt.' I have a master's degree too.)

Sam: "... I think I've seen it before. It was in one of my humanities courses at Stanford."
Dean: "They taught word of God at Stanford?"
Sam: "No, it was an overview of Native American Art - I think it's a petroglyph."

- What I love about this is that this is the second art-related course that Sam has mentioned taking at Stanford. Art history and an overview of Native American art.... remember that easel and the paintings in the Pilot? Everyone always assumed they were Jess' because, I guess, art is for girls? But personally, my headcanon is that they were Sam's. Yes, it's true that Sam can't draw a police sketch, but all the paintings in his and Jess' apartment were abstracts. Also, even though Sam gave the excuse in S1 that Art History was a good place to meet girls, we know that it was Brady who introduced Sam to Jess... so I think that was a cover story to feed to his super macho brother.
- On a completely different note, do we even know what Sam majored in? I mean, I know he was going into law (tax law, to be exact), but aren't lawyers Bachelor degrees usually in something else? Anyway, "one of my humanities" courses sounds like Sam wasn't strictly about the humanities, since that phrasing suggests that he had non-humanities courses.

Dean: "And you think this Metatron is hanging out in the mountains with a bunch of Indians?"
Sam: "Yeah, yeah I do!.... you're not- you're not really supposed to say Indians, it's- We should go."

- Thank you, Sam! Hahah, I love that line, and the way Sam says it - like, calling out his big brother on using inappropriate language is super awkward. Haha, but he's right!

And the angels get Castiel to stop by slaughtering one BigGersons and waiting for him to arrive at it and stop.

And Dean and Sam get to Colorado.

Cas: "We were supposed to be their shepherds, not their murderers."
Naomi: "Not always, angel. There was that day in Egypt..."
Cas: "Well I wasn't there."
Naomi: "Oh, you were there. You just don't remember it."
Cas: "How many times have you torn into my head and washed it clean."
Naomi: "Frankly? Too damn many. You're the famous spanner in the works. Honestly, I think you came off the line with a crack in your chasis. You have never done what you're told. Not completely. You don't even die right, do you?"

- So, I know some people were pissed about this addition to Castiel's mythology, because they wanted Dean to be the special snowflake that made Cas rebel and be different... but personally, I LOVE LOVE LOVE this. I love the idea that Cas could have been created to be who he is - that God may have made him with the express purpose of having Cas be a spanner in the works. Naomi sees it as an accidental fault, which is possible in SPN since their mythos meshes both fate and free will and both creationism an evolution... but yeah, I think Cas was created to question orders, and then put into a society that viewed questioning orders as treason punishable by death.... and, I think the fact that Cas "can't even die properly" points to the fact that Cas was never meant to be "fixed".
- I also love the subtle things about Naomi's speech here - how she calls him angel, to remind him of what he is, and what angels were created to do (obey).
- I also love the idea of Cas having sympathy for the innocent sons of the Egyptians during the plagues.

Cas: "In the words of a good friend, bite me."
- Hehehe, I like this because that could be either Dean OR Balthazar... but is most likely Dean.

Sam: "Hey, you remember when Dad took us to the bottom of the Grand Canyon on that pack mule ride."
Dean: "The what?"
Sam: "And your ah... your mule kept farting, just letting go like gale force."
Dean: "Dude, you were like four years old, I barely remember that."
Sam *laughs*: "You rode a farty donkey."

- So, yeah, it's TRUE that according to Dean in S2 they'd never been to the Grand Canyon, so this is a continuity error - but I ignore it with the excuse that they were 4 and 8 and Dean barely remembers. Like, just the other day, I had this crazy vivid memory hit me of me and my little sister taking pictures of our stuffed animals by the Wawa Goose - and I honestly didn't know what the hell trip that was. Or actually, a better example would be the fact that I tell everyone that I've never been to Canada's Wonderland, even though I actually have been, because my only remembrance of it is 1)a vague memory of the kiddie rollercoaster, and 2)a memory that I'm pretty sure if somepletely fabricated and was actually just a dream I had when I was six. Other than that, i can't tell you a single thing about Canada's Wonderland, not even where it is besides "somewhere just north of Toronto?"
- Also, I love the way when Sam tells this story, he REVERTS. Like, he remembers exactly how delighted he was when he was four to laugh at his brother being on a farty donkey, and it comes out in his voice. It's kind of adorable, in that way that kids are adorable even though I don't have the same sense of humour as them and think they're kind of dumb to find farts so funny.

Sam: "Yup, I'm going to follow the hotel manager, Mr. Scowly-Scowl. He's like a villain from Scooby Doo."
Dean: "Hey, no, little big man, YOU should get some rest."

- Hehehe, adorable.

And Sam goes on his quest anyway but then passes out...

Cas: "I need to protect it."
Naomi: "From the angels?"
Cas: "From all of us."

- Oh, Cas.... if only you could.

Crowley arrives!

Sam emerges from an ice bath. Just, FYI: Never do that to someone running a fever. You'll put them into shock.

Oh yeah, I forgot that Crowley made an angel killing gun... that was ingenious. The Winchesters should really look into that for S9, though, yeah, Cas hates the whole killing angels things, so maybe not.

And Crowley puts together where the tablet is...
Crowley: "...I was thinking to myself, 'Self, if Cas got away from her by touching the tablet. Why would he ever stop touching the tablet.' And then I thought to myself, 'Self, he hasn't stopped touching the tablet now, has he.'"

- This is both disgusting and brilliant.
- Also, as a fan of Boy Meets World, whenever someone has the line "So, I said/thought to myself... " I always want them to call themselves Kyle, because of this great exchange:
Eric: "So, I said to myself, 'Kyle'-"
Alan: "Kyle?"
Eric: "That's what I call myself."

And Kevin tricks the demons. I love Kevin.

Sam: "You used to read to me, when I was little, I mean really little - from that old classic comics illustrated - you remember that?"
Dean: "No."
Sam: "Knights of the Round Table! It had all of King Arthur's knights, and they were all on the quest for the holy grail, and I remember looking at this picture of Sir Galahad and he was kneeling and light streaming over his face and... I remember, thinking um... I could never go on a quest like that, because, I'm not clean. I don- I mean, I was just a little kid, do you think, maybe I knew? I mean, deep down, I- demon blood in me and about the evil of it and that I wasn't pure."
Dean: "Sammy, it's not your fault."
Sam: "It doesn't matter anymore, because these trials - they're purifying me."

- Ugh, i love this speech SO MUCH, it is possibly my favourite right after Dean's speech in S2 about how there's no God. I think because both speeches just so perfectly encapsulate the personality of the character that is speaking. So, let's break it down into all it's wonderfully delicious parts...
1) Dean's face when Sam says "I remember thinking I could never go on a quest like that" - because it's then that Dean's focus zeroes 100% onto what Sam is trying to tell him, because kids aren't supposed to have that reaction to the story. They're supposed to have the opposite reaction. They're supposed to think that they two are capable of adventure and quests and whatnot.
2) The idea that Sam knew, instinctively, as a kid, that he was different - that there was something gross and evil that had invaded his marrow when he was an infant... ugh, it breaks my heart, but is also kind of awesome for a hero-origin story.
3) The idea that Sam believes the trails are purifying him... it's really the last glimmer of hope that we get from Sam that he'll come out of this better than he was before. More than that though, wouldn't it have been super cool if he had been right?! Wouldn't it have been amazing if the reason that the trials are killing him isn't because they were designed to, but rather because they ARE purifying, but the demon-blood is such an important component to why Sam grew up to be this colossus that purifying him is also killing him... the demon blood is too much of an intregral part of him? I just think that that would have been amazing - and personally, I might just adopt it as my headcanon anyway.

And the boys find Metatron...

Dean: "We're the Winchesters. I'm Dean, this is Sam."
Metatron: "You work for Michael? Or Lucifer?"
Sam: "You really haven't heard of us? What kind of angel are you? We're the freakin' Winchesters!"

- heheheh...
1) Metatron points the gun at Dean when he says Michael and Sam when he says Lucifer... I think he knows, can see, that they're the vessels, even if he doesn't know who they are... doesn't know that the apocalypse has already came and went.
2) I just love how Sam is like "REALLY!? WE'RE INFAMOUS, YOU IDIOT!"

Cas: "Ion, how far can we let it all drop. This charge was left to us. It's our mission."
Ion: "Do you even know what the mission was? They've been in all our heads."
Cas: "We aren't machines for them to program and reprogram, that wasn't what this was meant to be."
Ion: "Nothing matters."
Cas: "You are so wrong, brother. It all matters."

- Ion has a point. If your head has been messed with on such a fundamental level, how can they be sure anymore what God's intent for them really was? How can they be sure which mission is real and which one is fabricated by some angel like Naomi trying to seize or maintain power for themselves. Which is why Castiel's viewpoint - the one usually falsely attributed to Buddha - "never do anything unless it agrees with your own reason" - is actually the only view point that matters. Though, that being said, that too can lead to hedonism or Ion's betrayal here, as it's pretty easy to come up with reasons why you should do something you want to do...even if part of you knows you shouldn't do it.

Ah the Crowley - Kevin confrontation. I love it.

Crowley: "How'd you figure it out?"
Kevin: "It started when they forgot the secret knock, but really, it was how they acted. I think on their best day, Sam and Dean would go into town and get me a barbecue dinner - but not when there are leftover burritos in the fridge."
Crowley: "So, my demons were too polite?"

- I love this. I mean, on the one hand, you could say, "wow, Sam and Dean are assholes" and you'd be right, because they kind of are. This is also how Dean could tell that John was possessed, fyi. So, it's not like the apple falls far from the tree. On the other hand, I think the example that Kevin uses makes perfect sense... because if you take two people who lived a scattered childhood with a frequently absentee single-parent, who probably frequently ran out of food money... well, hell yeah, they're going to make you eat all the food in the fridge before they go out and buy you more! You don't waste food!

I'm not going to write out the dialogue, but I like when Metatron refers to closing the gates of Hell as "pulling one of the great levers."

Metatron: "...the archangels decided that if they couldn't have Dad, they'd take over the universe themselves. But they couldn't do anything that big without the word of God - so I began to realize that maybe they would realize they needed me."
- It IS an interesting problem, when you're the only one who has read something... isn't this what that show Chuck was based around? Hahah

Dean: "You have no idea what's going on out there."
Metatron: "Nope, that's the whole point."

- Really, I suppose this should have been our clue that Metatron would always be self-serving.

And Crowley kills Ion with a bullet to the eye.

Metatron: "Oh, and it was something to watch. What you brought to his earth - all the mayhem, the murder, just the raw wild invention of Gods naked apes. It was mind-blowing. But really, really, it was your story-telling. That is the true flower of free will, at least, as you've mastered it so far. When you create stories, you become gods, of tiny intricate dimensions onto themselves. So many worlds!..."
- We also learn two things about Metatron here... so not only is he self-serving, but he also needs to be entertained AND he likes the idea of becoming a god.
- Also, I love how describes storytelling as becoming a god to a tiny intricate dimension. I was just watching a youtube video about whether or not fiction was real the other day that was sort of talking about this. Like, talking about something, makes it real, even if it's not actually real.

Sam: "You know what, pull the trigger."
Metatron: "What?"
Sam: "Pull the freakin' trigger, you cowardly piece of garbage. All the time you've been hiding here, how much suffering have you read over? Humanity's suffering? And how much of it has been at the hands of your kind?"

- So, as much as I agree with Sam... because Sam and Dean are very much in the "if you see someone in need of help, you are bound by duty to help them" camp. BUT, I'd also like to point out that the suffering at the hands of angels didn't occur until recently, and by the sounds of it, Metatron HASN'T been reading those stories - since he didn't even know that Michael and Lucifer were locked away and that Gabriel and Raphael were dead.

Dean: "You want a story, try Kevin Tran's story. He was just a kid, he was a good straight A kid, and then he got sucked in to all of this angel crap...he became a prophet, to the word of God. Your prophet. Now, you should have been looking out for him, but no, instead you're here, hold up, reading books."
Sam: "He's dead now, because of you."

- The Winchesters have a very wide definition of guilt. Because you didn't help, even if you didn't KNOW you needed to help, you are guilty. I mean, granted, Metatron fled and ignored everything because he didn't WANT to help anyone but himself, so I guess they have a point... but still.. it's a LITTLE harsh. Like, if there was a dying kitten in my alley right now, am I at fault for not taking it to the humane society? Even though I don't know it's there because I haven't looked at the alley today? (*ignores sudden urge to check alley for dying kittens*)
- Now, that being said, I do think it's neat to think that Metatron might have been TASKED with looking after the prophets of the Word, and therefore, since he basically ditched his job, it WOULD be his fault. I mean, if it were my JOB to look in the alley every day and check it for dying kittens, then if I didn't look today and a kitten DID die, then yes, that would be my fault.

Kevin: "You have no idea what's on this demon tablet. The power you could have gotten with this, if you weren't running around like a chicken with it's head cut off."
Crowley: "You think I can't make you tell?"
Kevin: "I know you can't, and you do too."
Crowley: "You know what. I've already won. I have the angel tablet, and I've got deals and plans up the Yangtze (jacksy?) and I don't need you."
*Metatron intervenes*

- So, firstly, I think it's so awesome that FINALLY Kevin gets the same protection as Chuck got... even if it's a regular angel and not an archangel, the entrance is still impressive.
- Secondly, I think this is where Crowley really started having respect for Kevin, really started to kind of like him in a really really angry way... because I think Crowley has to like anyone who outsmarts him, who doesn't fall for his tricks, who is done with cowering.

Dean: "How did you get passed Crowley's angel warding?"
Metatron: "I'm the scribe of God. I erased it."

- Whoa, I missed this the first time. Does this mean that the Winchesters can't ward against Metatron at all?! I guess perhaps the bunker is still safe, because of magic... but geez.

Metatron: "I saved the boy, didn't I?"
Dean: "But are you in. With us, I mean."
Metatron: "You really intend to close the doors to hell?"
Dean: "Seems like the thing to do, don't it?"
Metatron: "It's your choice. That's what this has all been about - but you're going to have to weigh that choice. Ask yourself, what is it going to take to do this and what will the world be like after it's done?"

- See, personally, I think this was a hint that closing the gates of hell was a BAD idea. That there would have been some consequence that they didn't foresee that actually made things worse... and part of me wonders if that's what jump-started Metatron's plan to return to heaven, because the Winchesters were about to ruin the earth. But, Metatron couldn't return to heaven because then the angel factions would come for him, try to use him... so his solution was to empty heaven first.... and then, of course, you get his interest in becoming a god and you get his need for entertainment...and you get S9.

Kevin: "Second half of the demon tablet. And I got it - the third trial. I didn't tell Crowley."
Sam: "What is it?"
Metatron: "To cure a demon."
Kevin: "Yeah... who are you?"

- Oh, how I wanted Kevin and Metatron to team up and be awesome... but nope.

Dean: "...if we do this, you get better, right?...."
Sam: "I feel better, yeah, just having a direction to move in."
Dean: "Good, because where we're headed doesn't sound like a picnic."
Sam: "But we're headed somewhere - the end."

- Oh Sam, it never ends. You just got renewed for a tenth season.
- Also, those who love The End'Verse as something real could totally use that line to justify their theories. Nevermind that 2014 has already been and gone, technically, and that the writers all agree that it was a falsification created by Zachariah anyway.

And Cas is dying in the middle of the road... again?

The demons and Crowley... ah they explain the woman walking into the movie theater - she's bringing Crowley the angel gun and telling him he was right, and it works.

Yay! Hopefully I'll be able to do another one on the weekend. In the meantime, let me now if you have any thoughts...

Date: 2014-02-28 12:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borgmama1of5.livejournal.com
A correction--And Crowley kills Ion with a bullet to the eye.

That was Cas who killed Ion.

Kevin Tran was awesome here, finally not just whining. And his 'I'm dead' message was heartbreakingly awesome.

Question--Angels need consent so how could Metatron just take over Kevin in that moment to save him? Unless it is a special dispensation for Metatron and prophets?

Sadly your reviews just make me realize how off-the-rails show has gotten :(

Date: 2014-02-28 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oops! That's a weird typo. :P

I think because he wasn't really taking over Kevin, he was just transporting him with added defense... so, at no time was Kevin not in control of his own body (well, besides the whole being transported thing.)

Like, if in the next scene, we saw Metatron talking and walking around using Kevin's body, THEN we'd have trouble - but I think it was just a trick that put the defensive power of metatron briefly inside Kevin, but not Metatron himself. If that makes any sense.

Sadly your reviews just make me realize how off-the-rails show has gotten :(


I definitely do feel that the Supernatural that I recommend to everyone is the Supernatural that ran from S1-S5... and that everything that has come after that has been more like official fanfic. I still enjoy it, and find it entertaining, but it's true that it doesn't grip me as it once did.

They're also dealing with far far less black and white issues than they once did - which makes for a more divided fandom, which also puts a bit of a damper on my enjoyment, since I can't have as much fun with the community around the show anymore either.

That being said, I may be laying blame externally where I should actually be focusing it on myself... I've always had a short attention span for shows and usually only watch them for a season or two and then lose interest and start watching something else. I think, if it weren't for the timeline and clothing catalogue project, this might have happened with me with SPN by S7... but because I feel like I need to continue with those projects until the show ends, I keep watching - and since I like liking things, I find things that I like about the show in order to keep enjoying it, even if it's as simple as "I wonder where they are going with this?"... but these days, I rarely read SPN fanfic or meta discussion. I think the fact that it's taken me 5 months to do this rewatch is telling - since I used to churn out 23 rewatch entries in the span of only one month.

That being said, my fandom interaction isn't actually a good measure of my opinion of a show - as right now I'm really enjoying Teen Wolf, and I'm super into it.... and I READ a lot of Teen Wolf fic, but I have absolutely no desire to write Teen Wolf fic. I DID start timelining it the other day, but I don't necessarily know if I'm ever going to do anything with that timeline. And I'm actually just as annoyed with the Teen Wolf fandom these days as I am with the SPN fandom, for good or bad reasons.

Date: 2014-02-28 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] percysowner.livejournal.com
the writers all agree that it was a falsification created by Zachariah anyway.

Oh, neat. I hadn't heard that the writers said 2014 was a falsification of Zachariah. I thought it probably was, but this is good to hear. I have the same feelings about DSOTM, not that Sam's memories weren't some of his happy ones, but that Zachariah manipulated which memories Dean saw.

And now I'm going to be a complete hypocrite because I hate the idea that Chuck was actually God and I'm putting my fingers in my ears and singing lalala over the fact that the writers said he was God.

Date: 2014-02-28 09:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Hahaha, I'm with you on all points - including the hypocritical one.

Personally, I'd prefer to believe that if Chuck were God, he wasn't actually aware that he was God, nor did he manifest as God, until that last scene when we saw him wearing the white shirt instead of his robe.

But my personal headcanon is that Chuck was a prophet and ascended to heaven when his work was done, as prophets do.

Date: 2014-03-01 07:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supernutjapan.livejournal.com
I honestly think it would have been interesting if Sam's sickness wasn't leading to an ultimate life-sacrifice, but instead was a result of not doing the trials fast enough.

I agree. If he was going to die anyway, why not just get worse and worse? Why get better when he starts moving toward the goal ... only to die at the end? The trials are giving him the power to finish, at which point he will be extinguished? What's the meaning of that?

I also like your idea of the trials purifying him and this being the cause of death - because he cannot survive without that demon blood in him.

My point is that I guess I'm in the mood for doting younger brother for a bit.

Me too... so much. I was hoping for that this season but maybe Sam just doesn't have it in him anymore? *cry*

- So, yeah, it's TRUE that according to Dean in S2 they'd never been to the Grand Canyon, so this is a continuity error - but I ignore it with the excuse that they were 4 and 8 and Dean barely remembers.

I could go with that - in other words, when he said they've never gone, he actually means he doesn't remember because they were too young. Thanks! That was really bothering me. (Not to say the writers had that in mind when they wrote this... it still bothers me that writers of a show know less about the show than the viewers.)

- Also, those who love The End'Verse as something real could totally use that line to justify their theories. Nevermind that 2014 has already been and gone, technically, and that the writers all agree that it was a falsification created by Zachariah anyway.

ok... this is where I COUNT on the writers not knowing what they are talking about. I have an objection to trying to explain away The End as a complete creation of Zach. For one thing, if Zach wanted to convince Dean to give in, the future Dean would not have told himself that he would never give in.

Plus, I think it is way cooler to think that angels can see/go to different versions of the future depending on the choices people make and that is where they base their talk of destiny - and also why it is so hard to change "destiny." On that line, it would make sense that Zach chose one possible future for Dean to see and experience.

Another problem that comes up when you try to explain these away as falsification is the question of how much is actually made by them and how much is not. For example, if the heaven in DSOTM was all made up by Zach, maybe Sam himself was not real. I mean, Sam told Dean that these really were his happy memories aye? So, either they were, or this is not really Sam. How about Cas? how about their friends Ash? etc.? Would Zach make up a world where they would have help getting away from him? Where he couldn't find them in the first place? WHERE HE WAS LOOKING FOR THEM WITH A SEARCH LIGHT? come on! It doesn't make sense.

As Ash warned them, Zach would have known which memories would lead to EDEN for them and was ready to catch them there when they got there. That one situation - with Mary - could easily have been changed by Zach for his own purposes because he had ambushed the boys there.

I don't really care what the writers say (They don't know what they are talking about). plug ears and lalala as percysowner said :P

I don't mind the idea of Chuck being god(anymore - although I used to). God decided to enter his own story as a prophet, and Chuck is the form he took. Obviously he has a much grander form to which he returns when he leaves the story. It's just like that Steven King series I mentioned before where the story world is a world within another world, within another world. (Like Horas(?) the elephant and those people in a world within a flower.)

Edited Date: 2014-03-01 07:23 am (UTC)

Date: 2014-03-01 07:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Another problem that comes up when you try to explain these away as falsification is the question of how much is actually made by them and how much is not. For example, if the heaven in DSOTM was all made up by Zach, maybe Sam himself was not real. I mean, Sam told Dean that these really were his happy memories aye? So, either they were, or this is not really Sam. How about Cas? how about their friends Ash? etc.? Would Zach make up a world where they would have help getting away from him? Where he couldn't find them in the first place? WHERE HE WAS LOOKING FOR THEM WITH A SEARCH LIGHT? come on! It doesn't make sense.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the ENTIRETY of heaven was a falsification made by Zachariah - I agree, that doesn't make sense at all.

What the previous commenter is saying, and what some people choose to believe, is that Zachariah manipulated what memories Sam and Dean would have to travel through to get to the garden... for the purpose of messing with Dean's head... but them meeting up with Ash was definitely off script - hence Zachariah ambushing them in one of the memories he knew was on the road.

In anycase, it's just a headcanon that various people prefer because, like Dean, they don't like thinking that Sam's happiest memories didn't involve Dean at all. Personally, I don't really care one way or the other, but I do think it was awfully convenient that Sam's memories happened to contribute to Dean's growing despair and hopelessness.

The writers have never commented on DSOTM, as far as I know.

And yeah, you could also see The End as a possible future for sure. After all, what WOULD have happened if Sam had gone through with his defeat Lucifer from the inside-out plan but Dean hadn't been there for moral support?

That being said, I personally prefer to the writer's view that it was all a falsification. Even Future!Dean telling Dean that he knew he wouldn't say yes still makes sense, because Future!Dean is implying that Dean is an idiot because of it - he's telling Dean that he SHOULD say yes, but that he knows even telling him that is hopeless because he knows Dean is super stubborn. It's classic reverse psychology, or to view it another way - it's Zachariah making future!Dean VERY believable, given that if Future!Dean thought that he could persuade Dean to say yes, Dean would have known that it wasn't really himself.

My god that's a confusing episode to talk about.

In anycase, possible-future or complete-falsification... my point was that I don't think The End is ever going to occur.

Date: 2014-03-01 08:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supernutjapan.livejournal.com
it's Zachariah making future!Dean VERY believable, given that if Future!Dean thought that he could persuade Dean to say yes, Dean would have known that it wasn't really himself.

yeah, confusing for sure :D

I know this is probably another one of those things we have to just agree do disagree. It is true that the above is very possible and since Zach is pretty stupid when it comes to manipulation, it is not surprising if his strategy would not work.

The multiple futures though also explains why it is SO DAMN HARD to change "destiny" as the angels/demons have it. Because it has already happened for them in multiple realities. The only way it can be changed is through the little details, which is what Dean and Sam ended up doing. And since Sam and Dean did change destiny, obviously The End of Zach's future is never going to occur - I agree on that point. For me, the alternate reality has already happened - in Swan Song. Dean and Lucifer/Sam did meet in Detroit. Dean knew Lucifer would be there because that is what happened to him in The End. (Which kind of also puts more credibility on the idea that The End was not all made up.)

You know I love this kind of stuff... :P
Edited Date: 2014-03-01 09:04 am (UTC)

Date: 2014-03-01 09:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
in Swan Song. Dean and Lucifer/Sam did meet in Detroit. Dean knew Lucifer would be there because that is what happened to him in The End. (Which kind of also puts more credibility on the idea that The End was not all made up.

Good point.

I'm not really coming down on one side or the other - but I do think both ideas a equally plausible.

Date: 2014-03-01 09:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supernutjapan.livejournal.com
Sorry - I thought I'd add a bit on the first part of your reply ;)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the ENTIRETY of heaven was a falsification made by Zachariah

That's the thing. People are just picking and choosing which scenes they like and throwing out the others as falsifications. When you do that it is impossible to find the dividing line between false and true.

It is true that the memories contributed to Dean's depression and I understand that people don't want to believe it, but Dean's been depressed about that since forever! We've known that Sam left home and never contacted Dean since the pilot, we've known how abandoned Dean felt since Skin... it is nothing new.

I'm not trying to argue with you - just venting since someone suggested this headcanon to me as fact ("everyone knows that..." arg!) on the forum and I just need to talk about it... sorry!

Date: 2014-03-01 09:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Haha, okay, yeah, I completely understand what you mean. It's certainly NOT fact - and you're right, where do you draw the line in the falsification theory?

Personally, I'm always much more understanding of Sam, so I don't really think his memories HAVE to be explained away - I just think a)it would have been SMART of Zachariah to have done that on purpose, and b)it isn't completely impossible.

But yeah, definitely not fact. And I think character-wise it DOES make sense that those would be Sam's favourite memories - the central driving force behind Sam's character is his desire for autonomy. So, memories where he got to do what HE wanted to do despite other people's wishes WOULD have been happy memories, even if they were simultaneously a little heartbreaking.

They make just as much sense as Dean's memories, which are all centered around looking after his loved ones - again, the central driving force behind Dean's character.

I've gotten off topic... my point is, that I completely agree with you that it's NOT fact that the heaven in DOTSM was false.

Date: 2014-03-01 11:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supernutjapan.livejournal.com
Thanks for that :D

DSOTM is one of my favorite episodes - if you can believe it, I love the scene where they get killed (Dean's expressions there are just unbelievable), I love Dean driving on heaven's road (Cas on the radio), the music, Dean's favorite scenes and even the heartache of Sam's as well as all our beloved friends revisited.

And I guess The End is too... I love time travel for one, and Dean seeing this possible future and realizing at the end that he has to stay with Sam. Of course scary Lucifer Sam is awesome as well - although it is a moment I dread, and Cas saving him from Zach in the end. Just awesome.

The falsification theory would seem to negate a big portion of these episodes and I just can't handle that.

But then...
I also love It's a Terrible Life, which was also orchestrated by Zach, and I sometimes wonder - if that Sam really was the real Sam. He seemed a little off to me... :D

Edited Date: 2014-03-01 12:17 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-03-01 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Well, the Sam in It's a Terrible Life was still high on demon blood - so I think THAT's more why he would seem a little off, rather than being completely falsified.

All Zachariah did in that episode was erase their memories, give them new ones, and stick them in a real-life office with real-life people being haunted by a real ghost... so, again, just as your argument for DOTSM, it doesn't make sense for one person to be completely fictional in that situation... and to what end? If the real Sam was someplace else, we should have gotten a parallel story about him freaking out about losing Dean again. And you also can't forget that TL took place over the span of a month - Sam and Dean had already been working in that office building for three weeks before the episode even began... so, that's a long time for a real Sam to be somewhere else.

Date: 2014-03-02 03:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supernutjapan.livejournal.com
I was partially joking there... I really want Sam to be the real Sam .. but I found it strange that he was the one so sure that this was not their destniny, and that they were meant to be hunting. Actually if it really is Sam then this is a huge revelation - that deep down, despite his surface desire for a normal life, he knows that he is meant to be a hunter and that he would be unhappy otherwise. Or he is being seriously manipulated by Zach into feeling this way.

The funny thing about this episode is that we don't have Zach actually touching Dean and Sam to bring them to that reality, and Sam and Dean never ever talk about it later either - it is completely on it's own. Dean could have even dreamed it in his bed - you know?

Anyway, just interesting to speculate.

Date: 2014-03-02 03:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
True, except Zach tells Dean that it was all real except for their memories... and I don't see the motivation to lie about that.

I think when Sam was hepped up on demon blood, he DID feel like hunting was where he was meant to be, because instead of something that made him feel powerless and like a freak, it made him feel special and powerful. Like, he was still different, but he believed he was different for a good reason! (The demon blood helped him save the victims, after all... I mean, how many people have they killed since then just because they were possessed? It used be a pretty big deal that they were killing a human along with the demon.)

Anyway, that's sort of my two cents. Sam was high on hunting in S4, because he believed that he could kill Lilith and he REALLY wanted to kill Lilith - and I think that desire, that believe that he had a task out there waiting for him - stayed in his subconscious even with the erased memories.

But it could also be that, like Dean, Sam actually can't be happy in a normal life - even though he desires one. He and Dean are both basically PTSD suffering child-soldiers, to varying degrees, so, on the one hand, yes, of course they want out - but on the other hand, hunting is really all they know.

Date: 2014-03-02 03:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supernutjapan.livejournal.com
It is interesting how our perception of characters in this show change so drastically. When I first watched IATL, I thought Zach was just awesome!

Anyway, I can understand how the demon blood would justify Sam's perception of hunting in a way. Even when he didn't have his memories, he still had the blood in him and as you said, he probably felt more like he wasn't meant for the boring life of a normal person.

That episode is just full of mystery and potential for imaginations to go wild ;)

Date: 2014-03-01 11:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowsong26.livejournal.com
Re: Sam's sickness here...it kind of makes me wonder, because when Kevin first told them about the Trials, the person going on the Quest wasn't supposed to fear death/torture/that spine thing. That could be an instruction, sort of, if that makes any sense? Like...'this will happen to you in the end, because you're going to become a Living Key sort of like Lilith, only locking a door instead of unlocking it, but you have to be a willing martyr in order to pull this off, you can't fear or doubt what it is you're doing or it won't work properly.'

I mean, if it is, then it sort of explains why Sam gets worse when they're stalled/when he starts doubting that he'll get through this, and then seems to stabilize/improve when they learn what the third Trial is? And it might tie into what you were saying about purifying the demon-blood being another explanation of what's going on. Like, the Trial-juice or whatever is sustaining him while purifying him, since purification is probably necessary and never a pleasant process even when you don't have demon blood, but it depends on his...mind, or soul, or something, so when he starts to doubt, it can't shield him from its own negative effects anymore? He has to trust in the Trial-magic/give himself wholly over to the Quest, or something.

I kind of wonder if Kevin would have agreed to come stay in the Bunker if they'd thought to bring him there, actually. He sent his mom away because he didn't want distractions, and who knows how often Garth checked in, and he had everything set up in a way that worked (ish) for him. He'd lose time to the move, and be exposed during it, and Sam and Dean would be even more hovery about 'get it done nownowfastnow' and all that. I mean, I know that the move didn't happen for out-of-story reasons, but I feel like that's a better in-story explanation than the sort of vague 'we never thought of it' we get here.

Also, I find it kind of hilarious how good the boys are at shaming cranky runaway angels into getting off their asses and doing things. Pity it backfired so hard this time...

On that note, from what I've read (not SPN related, just general reading about angels/archangels/whatever), it's actually supposed to be Gabriel's responsibility to activate and babysit prophets, since he's the Herald and everything. I guess Raphael was sort of picking up the slack after he ran off? (The more I think about it, the more I think that Raphael spent the bulk of his existence doing that--just sort of filling in where the other three Archangels dropped the ball. And then none of them ever mention him during the Apocalypse, not even Gabriel when he's calling Lucifer out...and now I feel kind of bad for Raphael, wow.)

Date: 2014-03-01 06:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Ooo... interesting theory, re: the trials and the sickness. That makes a lot of sense.

Also, yes, I agree about Kevin... it would have been much better to get an explanation that Kevin didn't want to leave his private safe-houseboat and deal with Sam and Dean everyday. The idea that they just didn't think of it, which is sort of implied by the fact that they never mention the idea and then just say "we should have moved him here" after he "dies", well...it DOES kind of paint the boys as idiots.

It also makes way more sense, character-wise, especially if they were setting up for S9, for Dean to say "we should have moved him here, even though he didn't want to move here" (or words to that effect anyway) - since it would be Dean placing someone's life/safety over their free will on the priority scale.

And you have a point about Gabriel, he IS the messenger/prophet-babysitter... so, yeah, Raphael doing it instead WAS covering for his brother. Though, don't feel TOO sorry for him, he at least had Michael helping him until Sam pulled him into the pit. So, really, it was two archangels running heaven - with Michael in charge. But yeah, it IS kind of shitty that no one seems to love poor Raph enough to mention him... nor does he get any sympathy in S6 for the fact that his three closest brothers are gone. :P


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