Quick Reaction: 8x06 Southern Comfort

[hells_half_acre]

Okay! I've had a little more wine than usual for a Wednesday night, because I started at 3:30pm...(don't judge me.)



So, how did the episode start? Oh yeah, crazy gruesome running-over death. The thing that gets me about that is that it wouldn't even be a quick death, realistically speaking. Though I think they made it one in the show. I'm always really glad that Supernatural is on TV and can't show anything onscreen. This was a "blood splatter" episode... that's fine. I can deal with blood splatter.

Enter the Winchesters. Sam is gone for ten minutes and Dean finds a hunt. It reminds me of S4, when Dean hunted nonstop in order to deal with his PTSD from hell. Dean seems to have one setting for PTSD-dealing: Repress and Hunt. It's never worked in the past, and it's not going to work now...and just like in the past, it's probably going to drive a wedge between the brothers...though we'll get to that. First, we get the conversation about Benny - he's a vampire, but he's Dean friend. And obviously Sam is pissed, because what about Amy? And Dean points out that they let the werewolf girl Kate go...and I point out that Dean only let her go because he wanted to have that argument point in his back-pocket for when the shit hit the fan, but surprisingly, Dean and Sam can't seem to hear me when I make this point.

But to make Dean's point (and this is the thing that sort of always gets me with Supernatural that I kind of wish they would emphasize more) CASTIEL ISN'T HUMAN EITHER. And while it's true that angels don't feast on human blood, they are, essentially non-human bastards, the majority of whom Sam and Dean have to kill at some point or another. So, I GUESS, Cas falls in a sort of grey zone...but still, I'm of the firm believe that Amy's death was a reaction to Cas' betrayal - so to bring her up is to bring up Cas for me, and the fact of the matter is that Cas murdered far more people than Benny ever could....and yet Cas can be given a second chance? Ugh, and now I'm sticking up for a vampire. Nevermind, I take it all back.

At least Dean says that if a hunter kills Benny, that's okay, but he draws the line at doing it himself. Fair enough. Sam wanted to give Lenore a chance back in S2, it's not SO ridiculous to give Benny the same shot.

Garth! So, I know some of you don't like Garth, and probably those of you who don't like him, are going to freak out about this episode - and not in a good way. But, hey, the good news is that you are freaking out about nothing - the even more good news is that even if you aren't, I don't really care. (BURN! Seriously though, I like Garth, and you aren't allowed to harsh my mellow.)

I love Sam's "I forgot he was a hugger" mutter when Garth launches himself at them. But I love Garth's reaction to seeing them. This is the thing, Dean was definitely MIA, and Sam dropped out completely - so what did the rest of the Hunting community know about the fate of the Winchesters? Suddenly there weren't any phone-calls asking if they had any experience with MonsterX, suddenly they couldn't get through to the Winchesters if THEY had questions abotu MonsterX... what were they left to assume? Unlike a lot of hunters, Dean and Sam are really of no-fixed address. So, yeah, for all Garth knew, both hunters might have bit it.

Though, by the way Garth reacted to them, I wonder if he knew that Dean was MIA but Sam wasn't... but we'll get to that.

Does no one really question a Texas Ranger being in Missouri?! That was kind of hilarious.

Garth's phones...my friend asked "Is he Bobby now?" just before Sam asked "Are you the new Bobby?" - and he IS! Though, I bet this probably has a few fans upset - I think what people have to realize is that there's a different between function and form. Garth has a very good point - Bobby served an essential roll in the Hunting world and with his death there was a HUGE VOID. I mean, who mans the fake FBI line? Further more, who is their 411? Sam and Dean were naturals to take over Bobby's role - more so than Garth, but they both dropped out of the life, by force or by choice... so what else were people going to do? Garth isn't Bobby, but the fact that he's willing to LEARN to be, is what makes him different than Sam and Dean.

Anyway, back to the episode. Garth tasting the ectoplasm from his boot was disgusting.

The nice thing about this episode is that it's a MOTW, but they manage to weave in enough emotional plot to keep it interesting...which I think was the problem with the MOTW's last year. (Ugh, I know, I should stop complaining about S7 - I apologize.)

So, off to interview lady, and then lady's son takes a shovel to his former-business partner's head... and I'm probably getting things in weird orders, but you'll have to forgive me. WINE.

Maybe they wet to lunch before the guy took the dude's head off with a shovel? In anycase, let's talk about LUNCH NOW: Garth likes to eat. I hate it when people talk with their mouth full, so this was a little hard to watch for me... but I'm sure it was harder to film for the actors...especially DJ Qualls.

But here's the thing: Garth just asks DEAN where he's been for the past year. Dean says Purgatory...Garth asks how he got out...Dean changes the subject. I wonder how Dean DID get out. I mean, Benny made it sound like there was just a door that Dean had to walk through - but I'm thinking that Dean getting out had something directly to do with Castiel not getting out or something...it just seems odd that Dean would avoid the subject so much.

We also get Garth backstory! Garth went to college! Garth was a dentist! Garth's first hunt was the tooth fairy! Ah haha. Oh Garth. The thing is, it's hilarious, but Garth treats it like it was a harrowing experience - AND IT WAS. I mean, think of the relative benign stuff that Supernatural has twisted over the years... the pagan Christmas gods playing bad-Santa springs to mind.

Anyway, dude takes other guy's head off with a shovel. So the boys split up. Dean and Garth and Sam off to do something or other...or interview cougar lady. (Seriously, if Sam had been soulless, he could have totally gotten some.)

And here we have the Bobby-thing again. Dean had even confiscated Garth's Bobby hat at the crime-scene. Ouch Dean. But Garth brings him to task. Before we get to that though, I have to say that Garth trying to get Dean and Sam to talk to him isn't knew to the character - really, he's very forth-right about what he is thinking and feeling, which is what I like about the character (and what saves him in the end). Garth just believes "better out then in" and lives by that.

Anyway, Dean of course, takes exception to Garth trying to "be Bobby" and tells him to cut it out. But Garth points out that "Bobbly belongs to all of us, not just you and Sam." - which is true. Bobby, being the one to man the phones and have all the books, was a touchstone for many hunters...and while it's true that Sam and Dean were his "sons" and no one is ever going to come close to feeling the loss like they do, other people do still feel the lose, and Dean dismiss their feelings as being less than his. They're different, but they aren't less. And since Garth took up part of Bobby's job, he misses Bobby in a way Sam and Dean don't - because he's ILL EQUIPPED to handle Bobby's job.

Think about it, Garth is the new "Bobby" to a legion of Hunters, but Garth has to consult Bobby's books/journals in order to help them - furthermore, by the time Bobby died, Sam and Dean were on par with his knowledge - they were actually dealing with problems that SURPASSED Bobby's knowledge. Sam and Dean, therefore, would have been the wiser choices to take over for Bobby in that respect - EXCEPT, what made Bobby a good "Bobby" was that he was STABLE. Sam and Dean are ANYTHING but stable. They are the most unstable, unpredictable, and unreliable hunters out there probably. They may be "good in a tight spot" (Gordon, I believe described them that way, though I may be misquoting) but I highly doubt that any hunter feels that they can count on them to be there from one month to the next - and to always be reachable in a crisis. Because Garth is so emotional stable, it makes him physically stable as well, and therefore reliable for hunters to call up in a way that Sam and Dean aren't.

What I'm trying to say is that Garth isn't a replacement for Bobby for SAM AND DEAN. He's a replacement for Bobby for people who didn't know Bobby - or only knew him casually. He's slowly setting himself up to be someone else's "Bobby"... it's just going to take him some time to get there.

Anyway...um, I got off on a tangent, and some of that I should have saved for the end of the episode, but I'll probably be talking about the brother's relationship then, so maybe it's just as well.

Dean sees the error of his ways and feels bad for upsetting Garth, who obviously loved Bobby too. And then they find the information on specters. Specters are from disturbed graves - and sure enough, a grave has been disturbed. The Unknown (Civil War) Soldier.

Burn the bones... but when is it ever that simple? This time, it's cop on cop violence.

This time it's Sam and Garth that head off to investigate the library, while Dean heads over to the hospital to stop another murder.

So, let's talk about Sam's flashbacks...

Sam has a flashback problem - in that he seems to zone out at the strangest and longest of times. I mean, seriously, the human brain isn't actually like a TV show - you don't have to "watch" the whole scene in order to remember it. An entire memory can happen in less then a second, between one step and the next. So, yeah, it sort of annoyed me that they actually had Sam stop and zone out. He has more flashbacks than PTSDean!

What do we learn from Sam's flashbacks though? Amelia's husband died in Afghanistan. That sucks. What sucks more is who the hell enlists without talking to their wife first? Seriously... based on that, I'd say they probably had a pretty crappy marriage to begin with. But hey, whatever. Anyway, super sad times...so Amelia moved to get away from the pity and condolences. But then, she told Sam, so now she wants to one-night-stand him, because she doesn't like the pitying look on his face. This is where my friend shouted out "That's not a look of pity! That's just Sam's FACE!" Which is true.

My friend's husband complained that Sam was wearing a t-shirt in the post-sex cuddling scene. Well, maybe "complained" is the wrong word - he pointed it out as odd. :P To be fair though, I do have a friend who immediately puts on a shirt after sex, because he's not comfortable sleeping shirtless. Personally though, I think it was a case of them not having time to put the tattoo on Jared.

 Anyway, who didn't see this coming? As Bobby said, "how come whenever you clean up a mess, you always end up muddy?" - or whatever the heck the line was. Sam and Garth discover that it was a penny, and meanwhile Dean gets the penny and becomes possessed.

This is the other thing about the episode...no one comments on the green/black good trailing out the people's ears. What's with that? Also, what kind of drunken idiot teenager doesn't hang on to a 1859 penny in order to see how much they could get off a coin-collector? 

Let's talk about the "Fell on Black Days" sequence where they follow the penny through the murders. Mainly, I want to talk about it because this is possibly the first time that Supernatural has used a song that I actually listened to a LOT in my youth. My older brother and sister were fairly big Soundgarden fans...they bought the European edition of Superunknown so that they could get the extra tracks.... anyway, yeah, um, crazyness. I really like that song. (My fav soundgarden song remained "Burden in my Hand" though). Anyway, I was kind of distracted with all the flashbacks that the song was giving me, but I think I liked this sequence.

So, flash forward to Sam and Garth charging into the hotel room to find a possessed Dean - and BAMMO, all the stuff comes out. Dean is pissed at Sam for not looking for him.... which, you know, fair enough. But, he also brings up demon-blood, Ruby, soullessness, the whole "not telling me you were alive" thing. Firstly, Dean's possessed, so I'll forgive him for holding Sam accountable to decisions he made while soulless. Everyone knows those decisions don't count. HE HAD NO MORALS. Geez. I mean, my dad has no morals, and I don't necessarily forgive him for that, but if I found out he was born without a soul, then I probably would.... or at least, I'd be more understanding. Secondly, okay, I guess since Dean's possessed, I should forgive him for everything he says here - but dude, S4 was totally Dean's fault too - Dean KNOWS Sam, and he approached him in the exact wrong way. Secondly, Sam's already atoned for the whole demon-blood/Ruby mistake...remember? When he submitted himself to unknown tortures for eternity/18-months? Thirdly, "those aren't mistakes, those are choices!" seriously?!? What do you think mistakes ARE?! Mistakes that aren't choices are called accidents. Mistakes that are mistakes are when you make THE WRONG CHOICE. Ugh, Possessed!Dean, you don't even know the definition of WORDS.

That all being said, Possessed!Dean does have a point - Sam didn't chose the hunting life. He was forced into it by his father, by circumstances, by divine plan, and by necessity...and it cost him EVERYTHING HE LOVES INCLUDING YOU. So, cut the kid some slack that he wanted to see how the other half lived. Geez.

Okay, seriously though, I can see why Dean is hurting over the whole Sam-not-looking for him. We're ALL wondering the same thing to some extent or another... how could he just hang it all up? There HAS to be something more. Who was that shadowy figure outside his place in Kermit, Texas? Why was he heading up to the cabin if he never got Dean's message? There's still mysteries to Mr. Samuel Winchester - no matter how much he claims to have been open and honest with Dean.

But again, I'm getting way ahead of myself. Dean beats Sam up. It's all very homoerotic. Especially, I'm thinking, for Garth, who doesn't know who the heck Sam is talking about when he brings up Benny...but apparently Benny was more a brother to Dean than Sam or Cas ever were, because Benny has never betrayed him (yet.)

Garth gets between them and tries to remind Dean that Dean's spent his whole life protecting Sam, so he definitely shouldn't want to kill him. I like the fact that Dean spending his whole life protecting Sam is like a FACT of the Hunting community. Roy and Walt knew it too... and Garth knows it, and it's not like Dean and Sam have ever told him their history.

And then Garth punches Dean, and I love how it hurts his hand so much.

So, Sam lives with a bloody nose. Garth destroys the penny, because he's immune to the specter. And then Sam has another flashback.....

And we see him telling Amelia about Dean. About losing Dean and not knowing what to do, so he just drove away... and that makes him and Amelia in the same boat. Although I'm not a wincest shipper, I do love that Sam and Dean are constantly being compared to married couples. They are platonically married. :P Also, Dean and Don? Seriously? Are you TRYING to make it this blatant?

So, was it just me, or when Amelia said "Do you want to talk about it?" and Sam answered "yes." Did you get the feeling that Amelia has meant "I'd much rather just have hot sex, thanks" only Sam totally missed the implied sentiment and was all like "yes!" and then Amelia was like "Shit! Seriously?! You would rather talk about your dead brother than have hot sex with me? Ugh." with her eyes, only Sam missed that too, and was like "Do you want to talk about Don, because I totally want to listen." And then he held her hand and Amelia was like "Oh god, no." but again, only with her eyes.... poor Sam.

Anyway, time for the brothers to talk to each other over the roof of the car. Does Dean apologize? At this point, I can't remember. I don't think he does. Sam though, points out that A)He can leave at anytime, thank you very much. He's got no reason to stay with Dean if Dean doesn't want him around...and B)Dean has to be prepared for Sam to f*cking reciprocate some friend-killing if Benny doesn't stay true to his word. And Dean is all like "sure, bro" but his eyes are like "oh my god, is this how you feel every time I kill one of your friends?! This is horrible! I'm a huge hypocrite and will never forgive you!"

Okay, that's unfair to Dean...Dean's not a HUGE hypocrite, he's just a small one. And he didn't kill ALL Sam's friends, just two of them, or something... and one of them definitely had it coming, and the other one arguably had it coming...but hey, Benny arguably has it coming too.

I do think that this season has an interesting dynamic though, because Sam CAN leave at any time. There's nothing, besides guilt, holding him there. And it IS guilt holding him there (as far as we know)...I mean, he SAYS it's because he wants to close the hell-gates, but I think it's more because he does feel guilty that Dean needed saving and Sam didn't know/try. So, yeah, one last hurrah to show his brother that he loves him and apologize (but things are never that easy for the Winchesters). And maybe Dean KNOWS that Sam can leave at anytime and he desperately doesn't want him to, so he might be preying a bit on the guilty-conscience that he knows Sam has.... I don't think PTSDean would fair well on his own, and I think Dean knows it. 

ETA: Oh god, I just realized that there were a whole bunch of funny things I didn't comment on. But right now, the only one I can think of is: "We won" - oh Dean, I love you. 


That was surprisingly long...sorry.

So, next week seems exciting! I am looking forward to it.

Comments

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

The way Garth called Dean out about Bobby not just belonging to the boys--I love how Garth is simply not cowed by Dean, how he won't go along with the 'we don't talk about feelings' rule! And then Garth standing between Dean with the gun and Sam, insisting Dean won't shoot him--Garth really has guts!

While his quirks may be annoying, I would watch the Garth show and root for him!

Because Sam and Dean, well right now, I want to smack them both upside the head.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Garth is pretty awesome. I love how he's such a contrast to Sam and Dean personality-wise - yet he's still a very level-headed capable hunter.

I do wonder how the other hunters talk about Sam and Dean when they aren't around. Personally, I picture Garth sitting down for a beer somewhere with another hunter and being like "so, I did a job with Sam and Dean last week" and the other guy is like "wow man, how'd it go?" and he's like "I want to smack them both upside the head." :P

[borgmama1of5.livejournal.com]

I want to read that whole 'two hunters having a beer and talking about Winchesters' scene!!!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Haha, I should start a list. I kind of want to write one. I'm fascinated with other-hunter's POVs of Sam and Dean.

[ashkiryn.livejournal.com]

This was quite the episode. I personally love Garth so much, and...well, yeah, who else is out there to take over Bobby's job?

Okay, other things. I'm glad that, for the sake of character continuity, both Amy and Kate were brought up. And that terms were set for Benny.

But. But.

Well, all the boys are freaking me out, but Sam and Dean in those episode.

I dunno, maybe it's because of his Purgatory-PTSD or something, but Dean's just been feeling OFF to me so far this season. Not even just his weirdness regarding Cas or how he got out or hiding Benny, but just...so, so off, especially when he's talking to Sam.

Sam's freaking me out with his mysterious whatever that he had with Amelia and then "there wasn't", and why he was particularly defensive of her at the end of the episode, but...

SAM.

SAM FUCKING WINCHESTER.

You may have valid points, but AGGRAVATING DEAN'S ABANDONMENT ISSUES IS NOT A SOLUTION TO ANY OF YOUR PROBLEMS, EVER.

And threatening his vampire boyfriend that's "been more of a brother to [him] than [you] or Cas have ever been"??!! YES, THIS IS SURE TO HELP HIS MENTAL STABILITY, GENIUS. THIS IS CERTAINLY GOING TO GET HIM TO FEEL COMFORTABLE AND SAFE ENOUGH WITH YOU TO GET EVEN NEAR THE POSSIBILITY OF HIM TALKING TO YOU ABOUT PURGATORY.

SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM.

*holds head in exasperation*

You're supposed to be the more emotionally mature/aware/smart one, goddamn it!

Now, this isn't to say that I don't think Dean isn't accountable to anything, or that I don't think he's being unnecessarily jerkish to Sam on certain issues, or that Dean's behavior isn't WIGGING ME THE FUCK OUT in a lot of ways. Because he is, and he does. And I've resigned myself to the fact that Benny is more than likely going to become Dean's Ruby.

But.

*sigh* Sam, I guess I was expecting better of you. *headdesk*

I love the Winchester boys dearly, but....

ARGH GODDAMN IT, YOU BOTH CAN JUST BE SO IMPOSSIBLY STUPID SOMETIMES.

Anyway. The one thing I didn't like Garth doing this episode was calling Dean an "idjit". Just....no. I know Bobby probably called a lot of people that word, but just...that weirded me out like nothing else of Garth's Bobby-ness did. Maybe it's because "idjit" just feels like such an exclusively Bobby word, and kind of a nickname for his boys, but....no, Garth. Everything else was fine, but not that.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Part of me wonders if Sam is screwing up talking to Dean because DEAN IS WIGGING HIM OUT TOO! I think Sam's been thrown for a major loop, and he doesn't know how to handle it... while, I agree that not being open to Dean making vampire friends doesn't encourage Dean to talk about purgatory - I also think that Sam is just as fed up with the secrets as we are and he's just... not in the mood to be patient and pretend-tolerant. I think Sam IS being honest (because I don't have any evidence otherwise) - and he's being COMPLETELY honest.

If he were to tell Dean that "of course I'd never leave you" and "no, I'm happy you have found a good friend in a vampire and of course I won't ever kill him, I promise", he'd be lying.

So, yeah, it's not helping - but I don't think him handling Dean with kid gloves would necessarily work out either. The fact remains that Dean doesn't WANT to be treated like he has a major case of PTSD. He wants to ignore everything because that's how he is. So, even if Sam was all like "I'm here for you, and blah blah blah" Dean would probably still not talk to him and blame him for things...and hate him for not looking for him, etc. Sam's damned either way, so he might as well live honestly.

I agree about "idjit" - I think the problem is the delivery, as well as the hidden context. "Idjit" was Bobby's form of "bitch/jerk" when it came to Sam and Dean. Also, Jim Beaver was able to deliver that word in such a way that it felt natural - whereas DJ Qualls can't. It sticks out of the speech like a foreign word.

[nerthus.livejournal.com]

Interesting point you made about the Winchester boys having more knowledge than Garth but being too unreliable and unpredictable; who does that remind me of but another Winchester, John? Maybe his boys grew up more like him than either would care to admit. I know, that has nothing to do with the actual episode last night, ha, just an observation brought to mind by your insightful comments!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I also saw a really interesting interview with Ben Edlund from ComicCon, and he pointed out that the reason that the boys constantly keep secrets from each other is also directly caused by John. They were RAISED to keep secrets from each other, because John kept secrets from them.

So, yeah, as much as their absolutely and abiding love for each other came from John's example, so too did their unreliability and secret-keeping.

[metallidean-grl.livejournal.com]

Interesting review. Most of the time I agree with your POV, but I just gotta say, with this episode, we are at polar opposites of each other as far as interpretation and feelings, thoughts about the brothers. That's very curious to me. There are too many to point out and I don't want to belabor the point, but one thing I will bring up. The last scene with the brothers talking over the car. Sam calling out Dean, yea, okay, I was semi-okay with that. I guess that was needed to get Dean to stop hitting Sam all the time about him not hunting the past year. But Sam should have left it with that.

The last comment from Sam that he just might the hunter that would kill Benny. I don't think Dean took to kindly to that statement at all. If Benny were killed by an unknown hunter, I think Dean would hurt that Benny is dead, knowing where he is going back to, but the fact that he was killed by someone Dean doesn't know, he could live with that. BUT, if Sam were to be the one to kill Benny - that's a whole other story. Sam knows that Benny is Dean's friend. Sam knows that no matter what, Dean won't be the one to kill Benny because of their friendship. What Sam doesn't understand completely yet or I don't think he will ever understand is the bond these two have formed over the year of trench warfare together. Sam needs to understand and respect that bond, he needs to not be jealous of that bond and he needs to not push Dean in regards to Benny. Yes, Dean hasn't told Sam much about his time there, but c'mon, what returning soldier from any war tells his family about their experiences, opens up to them about what they had to do, the depravities they were forced into because of their situation. You hear stories over and over again from families saying about how their loved ones never talked about their experiences. This is really no different. Sam shouldn't push Dean or expect Dean to talk about what happened to him, and for Sam to say he may be the one to kill Benny, to kill the one person on earth that Dean CAN relate to in what happened to him during his year in Purgatory, that to me is unconsciounable. (sp?) The look on Dean's face was one of controlled anger, controlled feelings of Sam, you better not go there, because if you do, that will be a mighty big bridge they are going to have to cross because I don't think Dean will EVER forgive Sam for that. So, anyway - that was my take on that scene. See - polar opposite.

I appreciate your comments about Garth. I have always liked him, but this episode, soured me a little on him - maybe we had too much of him - but I still like him.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

The look on Dean's face was one of controlled anger, controlled feelings of Sam, you better not go there, because if you do, that will be a mighty big bridge they are going to have to cross because I don't think Dean will EVER forgive Sam for that. So, anyway - that was my take on that scene. See - polar opposite.

Actually, I don't think that's the polar opposite at all. Because, that's exactly what I meant. So, we're actually in agreement! :P I probably was just too horribly inarticulate because I really did have too much wine last night.

[metallidean-grl.livejournal.com]

LOL. Yay!!! I'm glad we agree. We do usually have the same POV on the episodes, there may be some differences, which was why I was so alarmed that on this point we were so different. Just goes to show you shouldn't write a review when you are hammered. :)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Haha, yeah, on the funnier episodes, it usually helps my review to be hammered - but this one was surprisingly emotionally in depth, so yeah... hard to figure out if what I mean is coming across in my writing. :P

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Hey there.

So, I just wanna say it first: I have a lot of love for this episode!


JESUS, that death of the poor Car-guy was horrible! I think it was one of the worst deaths I've yet seen on SPN - poor guy!

I nearly cried when he was still begging his wife to stop :-(

And obviously Sam is pissed, because what about Amy? And Dean points out that they let the werewolf girl Kate go...and I point out that Dean only let her go because he wanted to have that argument point in his back-pocket for when the shit hit the fan, but surprisingly, Dean and Sam can't seem to hear me when I make this point.

hmmm, I don't think so. I think he really let Kate go because he felt like she deserved a chance - one that he didn't give Amy, sure, but that was THEN, before Purgatory. He changed some of his views, and that's why he let Kate go. But sure, bringing her up was very convenient for the argument with Sam ;-)

but still, I'm of the firm believe that Amy's death was a reaction to Cas' betrayal - so to bring her up is to bring up Cas for me, and the fact of the matter is that Cas murdered far more people than Benny ever could....and yet Cas can be given a second chance?

Interesting... and it wouldn't even be a second, but a third chance, right? Cas let junkie-Sam out of the Panic Room (which probably no-one knows for sure, but still)

At least Dean says that if a hunter kills Benny, that's okay, but he draws the line at doing it himself. Fair enough. Sam wanted to give Lenore a chance back in S2, it's not SO ridiculous to give Benny the same shot.

That's how I see it - though of course I see Sam's point that it's DEAN giving Benny a shot and not Sam, and I also think that Sam was mostly pissed (and rightly so) that Dean didn't trust Sam's word that Amy would be ok. So for me, Sam sees it as a kind of... belittling from Dean, that DEAN can decide who lives and who dies, but Sam isn't given the same power/the same benefit of a doubt to decide it.
From the standpoint of him being the younger brother who was probably told something like that often („you're too young to understand that, Sammy“ pets head*) , it makes sense that that irks him so much, especially since he PROVED how good a hunter he can be.

So Dean killing Amy even though Sam swore she wouldn't do more harm is not just an un-needed kill but also a blatant show of distrust.


(tbc, because I was chatty...)

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Does no one really question a Texas Ranger being in Missouri?! That was kind of hilarious.

Poor Missouri-cops... they sure got the bad-end of a joke from this - because even I would question a Texas Ranger (wearing that stuff) in Missouri.

Though, I bet this probably has a few fans upset - I think what people have to realize is that there's a different between function and form.

Well, it made me wonder a bit, but I mostly liked that because of the reaction we get for that from Dean. How he's SO not over Bobby being gone and hoarding him as "his and Sam's", and hating the memory of Bobby being ... well, copied by a skinny weird guy.
Still, he got over himself and I'm glad he did. Because damn, didn't Garth make sense, right? I like that the writers didn't leave that dangling loose, that end that Bobby's death created for the hunting world.

And I also love Garth :-D

So, off to interview lady, and then lady's son takes a shovel to his former-business partner's head... and I'm probably getting things in weird orders, but you'll have to forgive me. WINE.

I think you forgot one of the highlights:
"You pout like a unicorn in a whorehouse" - Really, that's just too funny! I imagine that unicorn now, looking suspiciously like Sam with his Puppy-face :-D

but I'm thinking that Dean getting out had something directly to do with Castiel not getting out or something...it just seems odd that Dean would avoid the subject so much.

I think you're right. I'm sure he got out because Cas didn't - even if not EXACTLY that way. And it's interesting that he changed the subject...

but I highly doubt that any hunter feels that they can count on them to be there from one month to the next - and to always be reachable in a crisis. Because Garth is so emotional stable, it makes him physically stable as well, and therefore reliable for hunters to call up in a way that Sam and Dean aren't.

Well put! Yes, if I were a hunter, I'd sure love to have Sam and Dean on my side, but RIGHT NEXT TO ME, and not as a lifeline on a phone. (Which, if Bobby was out, did he re-route his calls to his cell?) Because if I had to rely on calling them... it might be that they are dead once again. Or quit, or fight an angel or two... yeah. Not my choice. Better have Garth. Who is fun, too.

And Garth had, after all, one and a half years to find his footing.

tbc

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Sam has a flashback problem - in that he seems to zone out at the strangest and longest of times.

*laughs* That's what I thought too! I mean, it would make sense for Dean (being PTSD'd) to zone out, but Sam? Or well, considering that weird woman he dated (and her complete and utter ... weirdness), it might be he was traumatized as well.

Yeah, sorry. Don't like Amelia one bit. I wouldn't mind SOMEone for Sam, really not, but that person???? Last ep, it was said that she "knew you were creepy" - but still forced that dog on him??? Who DOES that? Ugh... don't get started here, Marlowe...

hat sucks. What sucks more is who the hell enlists without talking to their wife first? Seriously... based on that, I'd say they probably had a pretty crappy marriage to begin with.

*chuckles*

*so not saying what I'm thinking now...or well... can't hold it in*

Maybe he just wanted to escape?

*shutting up now*

Also, what kind of drunken idiot teenager doesn't hang on to a 1859 penny in order to see how much they could get off a coin-collector?

Wondered about that... who the hell takes a penny from Civil War to BUY BEER????

But then again, maybe he didn't want to give it away but since the spectre didn't get any anger from him, it wanted to move on and "forced him" to buy stuff with it? think I'll go with that reason...

I really liked that penny-sequence as well. Good idea, well done. And awesome song!

Possessed!Dean, you don't even know the definition of WORDS.

I just cite that part, but I mean the whole paragraph:

Yeah, I agree that Dean had no right to bring that stuff up - and we see Sam accepting that in the end and "only" complaining about the recent things.
What I do understand, though, is anger and not letting go.

See, Dean NEVER really was like Garth: all out. Yes, he's forgiving in action, he doesn't hold stuff against people when it's life and death and he probably doesn't really FEEL it all the time.
Yet I think that they're always there, those moments he felt like being betrayed. Of course not the soulless-Sam-deeds - that's crap and he wouldn't say that if ghost-free, but there are things he would still feel like a sharp knife, even though rationally he KNOWS there is no blame to lay.
Like Sam not looking for him. Rationally, he knows that Sam couldn't have done anything - so why be angry that Sam knew that right away and didn't waste his time?

Yet that's rational, not feelings. Feelings aren't rational, and to know (and so far we have to go with what Dean got from Sam about "not looking") that your brother never bothered? Ouch. So of course that makes you angry, and anger makes you see things differently in a lot of ways, maybe re-examining long-past things and maybe thinking that there might be betrayal in there already.

Of course, since we're talking possession, all that is enhanced anyway. So yes, I do understand that Dean was so angry, and that there is a lot of that anger even un-possessed.

See, maybe I'm just weird and other people don't feel like that, but sometimes I get angry at things and at people even though I KNOW they aren't to blame - and KNOWING that makes it even worse. Because I have to constantly fight my own anger down, because my rational mind tells me that I'm wrong to feel that way.
Yet I do, and so it goes on and on.

Someone as repressive as Dean would certainly have a lot of niggling things inside his head and heart. Even if he doesn't really feel that way, not when it would matter...

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

So, cut the kid some slack that he wanted to see how the other half lived. Geez.

Hm, yes, but (and you do, so it's more a general thing I say now):
Cut Dean some slack, too. He certainly didn't choose to be in Purgatory and he didn't choose this life either - though I'm sure he would have, if things had gone differently. But he DIDN'T, he did what he thought would be right, and when he was old enough to doubt (which sure wasn't at age 26), he was already in deep shit, and knew too much about the not-choices they all had.

I'm really not begrudging Sam a good life, really not. And well, if he didn't look, then that was his choice and he is the one to ultimately live with that choice, but he ALSO kinda has to live with the consequences - which right now are Dean being angry and hurt and huh, finding a friend who isn't so human.

So I'm getting grudgy when some people say that Dean is being wrong about getting his little snipes in. Why not see that he has the same right to be pissy and angry about his brother that Sam has in choosing his own way?

Why was he heading up to the cabin if he never got Dean's message?

Apparently, (Jared said so in one of the cons) Sam had done that over the year time to time, that he'd leave Amelia and be away for a while - which would also explain the beer in the cabin - but the show had to cut that part short for time-reasons. Which - if he's not pulling our strings - would suck, because that's kinda IMPORTANT TO KNOW, right?

*sigh*

Also, Dean and Don? Seriously? Are you TRYING to make it this blatant?

I never even NOTICED!!! O.o

Now you put that into my head and I can't unsee it :-(

And then he held her hand and Amelia was like "Oh god, no." but again, only with her eyes.... poor Sam.

hee... I have to watch that scenes again. I did indeed feel that they weren't really in the same boat at all, and emo-Sam was kinda cute... though really I'd choose the sex :-D

Does Dean apologize? At this point, I can't remember. I don't think he does.

Nope.
But Sam cuts him off after "I don't remember what I said, but..." - so I guess there was an apology in there. Though we'll never know.

And Dean is all like "sure, bro" but his eyes are like "oh my god, is this how you feel every time I kill one of your friends?! This is horrible! I'm a huge hypocrite and will never forgive you!"

i disagree. About the eyes and what they say, not about him being a hypocrite because well.. yeah. He is.

Then again, it was a YEAR ago, a year in which a LOT has happened for Dean that didn't happen to Sam in that year.
He might not kill Amy now, if that situation would come up now.

And Sam's a hypocrite as well, if he's really so angry about Dean having secrets after Purgatory. Because he had his secrets after Dean went to hell, he had Ruby and never told Dean (because Dean would disapprove, as would Sam about Benny - which MIGHT be the reason neither of them told the other?).
He had the SAME reason for sticking with Ruby that Dean had with Benny, companionship and survival. The blood-drinking, yes, that was a part that kept him glued to her, but not the initial reason.

And yes, Sam did atone for that in the Cage, he should be all forgiven... and it is STILL something that happened, and it is still true.
It happened, and you cannot just erase it. You can forgive it (which I think Dean did, at least mostly) but it's still there. Like that soldier being shot by his own brother, for his choice of fighting in the "enemy's" army - as much as an accident that him being the shooter probably was.

As for the look in Dean's eyes, I didn't see any surprise or what you mentioned (and yeah, I re-checked so I have an advantage ;-) ) - but rather ... well, nothing. Which is typical.

I think there's also the acknowledgement that Dean would one day probably have to chose between his war-buddy and his brother (who fits that description also) and I'm pretty sure he knows how he'd choose - and just doesn't want to deal with it yet.

But that's not something you really SEE in his eyes... his look is just blank.

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

And maybe Dean KNOWS that Sam can leave at anytime and he desperately doesn't want him to, so he might be preying a bit on the guilty-conscience that he knows Sam has.... I don't think PTSDean would fair well on his own, and I think Dean knows it.

THAT, I totally agree with. He's afraid of Sam leaving - which hello, not really anything new, right?

Sam is also feeling guilty about Kevin, I'm sure, because that is indeed someone he left all alone. Yes, he might not have known anything about Dean's whereabouts, but by choosing picket-fences, he also left people out to dry who needed him.

I see WHY he did it, but as I said earlier: He made the bed, now he has to sleep in it (which he totally is prepared to do but doesn't want to be jerked around for by his brother, which I also understand completely)


And as for the plot and the angry-brother-thing:

Remember Asylum? How there was this guy who was so angry at his brother that he would've killed him if the pistol was loaded?

This is ripe with little snippets from there, not to mention Dean wearing the same clothes as he did in the Pilot, and the possession with goo from the ears, people killing people they don't wanna kill but feel angry over (a little bit at least).

Only this time, the ghost himself felt betrayed as well. Which I think was a very big part in this episode, there was betrayal all over. Car-guy "betrayed" his wife at prom, shovel-guy betrayed his business-partner, cop ...dunno what he did, actually.

Even though it wasn't real betrayal, it felt like it to the possessed people, felt like it even while not possessed, though not as strong, or as something that would be worth making a fuss over. So... yeah.

Even the end-talk at the Impala is like it was at Asylum. Only there, Sam DID apologize, saying he didn't mean those things he said. Dean didn't believe him I think, and Sam doesn't believe Dean here. "You didn't need to be possessed to say those things", which... uh, well. If he DIDN'T, Dean'd have said them earlier. Right? Like Sam would have in Asylum if he didn't need the crazy doc to give him a brain-fuse.

I don't really think the writers wanted to SAY something with that, make comparisons or whatever, but it IS certainly not an accident, of that I'm sure.


Anyway, sorry for spamming you here. And also sorry for jumping in the breach for Dean, if you feel that is unreasonable, just ... well, ignore it ;-)

Just to make it clear:
Yes, he is a (little? Big?) hypocrite, but that doesn't necessarily make Sam more right, or less one.

It makes him and Sam human, un-perfect, alive. People.

They clash in so many ways, but are bound together by destiny, duty, shared history and some other crap. But BOTH are being pig-headed and stupid in equal measures.

Idjits, as Bobby would say.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Sam is also feeling guilty about Kevin, I'm sure, because that is indeed someone he left all alone. Yes, he might not have known anything about Dean's whereabouts, but by choosing picket-fences, he also left people out to dry who needed him.

Oh! Good point. I had forgotten about Kevin.

Remember Asylum? How there was this guy who was so angry at his brother that he would've killed him if the pistol was loaded?

Ooo...also a good point.

Anyway, sorry for spamming you here. And also sorry for jumping in the breach for Dean, if you feel that is unreasonable, just ... well, ignore it ;-)

No, no, don't apologize. I think I was being a bit overly harsh on Dean - mainly because he gets so belligerent when he's got PTSD, that I sometimes forget that he has PTSD and isn't thinking rationally and THAT'S the problem. Dean is always a big ball of repressed emotions, and I'm a bit Spock-like (ie: also a big ball of repressed emotions), so it's sometimes hard for me to get a grip on him, even though you'd think that it should be easy for me. :P

They clash in so many ways, but are bound together by destiny, duty, shared history and some other crap. But BOTH are being pig-headed and stupid in equal measures.

Very true. I mean, there'd be very little show, if they actually sat down and talked about their feelings in an understanding accepting way. :P The whole point of Supernatural is that we're watching these two guys fumble their way to a healthy relationship in the most unhealthy (mentally-speaking) conditions.

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

No, no, don't apologize. I think I was being a bit overly harsh on Dean - mainly because he gets so belligerent when he's got PTSD, that I sometimes forget that he has PTSD and isn't thinking rationally and THAT'S the problem. Dean is always a big ball of repressed emotions, and I'm a bit Spock-like (ie: also a big ball of repressed emotions), so it's sometimes hard for me to get a grip on him, even though you'd think that it should be easy for me. :P

Glad I didn't get over the top ;-)

Dean is certainly the more unstable, unhealthy brother of the two. On one side, he wears his emotions on the sleeve so that everyone and their uncle see how much he cares for Sam (Garth, Brian and Kate who thought they had a work-romance...), but he buries everything else and when it gets out, it's usually in a big explosion of fury (which usually leads to bruises, so we should really commend him for not punching Sam (unpossessed) this time :-D )

See you next week.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

He certainly didn't choose to be in Purgatory and he didn't choose this life either - though I'm sure he would have, if things had gone differently. But he DIDN'T, he did what he thought would be right, and when he was old enough to doubt (which sure wasn't at age 26), he was already in deep shit, and knew too much about the not-choices they all had.

Very true. Also, Dean too wondered how the other half-lived once he was old enough to doubt...and he got to see! And I think the difference between Sam and Dean is that Sam can handle a normal life (so far as we've seen). Dean, however, can't. He's always half-empty and the hunting lifestyle is too ingrained in him (hence why he constantly tells people like Jo or Crissy to get out while they're young, because it's "too late for me.") Normal life for Dean is a fantasy that is only a fantasy...whereas for Sam, it's a fantasy that can become a reality easily.

I've gotten off topic though - I think you're right in that it's the "not looking" thing that is sticking with Dean, because Dean sees it as a sign of not loving him. Actions are what are important to Dean, and Sam trying to find him would have been a display of love. I think the main problem comes down to the whole "did you mourn?" question. Dean's version of "did you mourn?" is "did you look for me?" and when Sam answers "no" well, that hurts. But Sam DID mourn, but because Sam is a different person than Dean, that mourning took a different form and it's one that Dean can't recognize as being an action of love.

Apparently, (Jared said so in one of the cons) Sam had done that over the year time to time, that he'd leave Amelia and be away for a while - which would also explain the beer in the cabin - but the show had to cut that part short for time-reasons. Which - if he's not pulling our strings - would suck, because that's kinda IMPORTANT TO KNOW, right?

I don't really trust anything Jared says at Cons - because the show is so careful about spoilers usually, and Jared knows how to spin a word or two.

hee... I have to watch that scenes again. I did indeed feel that they weren't really in the same boat at all, and emo-Sam was kinda cute... though really I'd choose the sex :-D

Haha, maybe it was the wine! But yeah, I get the feeling that Supernatural is pulling a "500 days of Summer" on us, and we're seeing the Sam/Amelia relationship from an unreliable narrator during these flashbacks.

Then again, it was a YEAR ago, a year in which a LOT has happened for Dean that didn't happen to Sam in that year.

Very true. I mean, it's a little unfair of me. You don't call a reformed racist a hypocrite after all. Dean's changed because of his life experiences, and that's a totally legitimate reason to act in an opposite manner to how you may have acted before.

He had the SAME reason for sticking with Ruby that Dean had with Benny, companionship and survival. The blood-drinking, yes, that was a part that kept him glued to her, but not the initial reason.

Also true - actually, at this point, I'd argue that Dean and Benny's relationship is much healthier than Sam and Ruby's - given that Benny has never raped Dean, and then turned him into a an addict.

But, I don't think you can call Sam a hypocrite from bringing Dean to task on keeping secrets because Sam kept Ruby a secret - after all, if we're talking about learning from our life experiences, Sam should bring Dean to task MORE, because they both learned how horrible secret friendships were because of Ruby. Sam would only be a hypocrite if the Ruby relationship and the Benny relationship were happening simultaneously.

I think there's also the acknowledgement that Dean would one day probably have to chose between his war-buddy and his brother (who fits that description also) and I'm pretty sure he knows how he'd choose - and just doesn't want to deal with it yet.

I think this IS what I see in his eyes...but *shrug* you're allowed to not interpret looks the same way I do. ;)

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

But, I don't think you can call Sam a hypocrite from bringing Dean to task on keeping secrets because Sam kept Ruby a secret - after all, if we're talking about learning from our life experiences, Sam should bring Dean to task MORE, because they both learned how horrible secret friendships were because of Ruby. Sam would only be a hypocrite if the Ruby relationship and the Benny relationship were happening simultaneously.

True.
Dean should know that it's a dangerous path he treads with a vampire, especially after he'd witnessed Ruby messing with Sam. He should know BETTER, but either he doesn't or he chose to ignore it.

One might argue that there were times in their past where "evil beings" like ghosts and vampires were not as ingrained-evil as a demon (Lenore, Molly, maybe even Madison though that was more an instinct vs real person-thing), where demons are evil incorporate.

Or maybe that's just what Dean would tell himself if he ever thought about it, to justify his hypocrisy. ;-)

And what makes that scene with Sam getting angry at Dean completely ok with me is this:

Dean has a right to feel (!) angry, because from his baseline, Sam seems to not care and knowing Sam didn't look hurt him.
But on the same hand, Sam has the same right to be hurt by Dean's words, possession or not, because they HURT.

Because he knows that he missed Dean, and he knows how he mourned him, and hearing "you betrayed me, and there are better brothers out there than you" must have stung.

So Sam's just as allowed to be hurt and chew his brother out, since both have - from the few information they actually HAVE about the other - a right to be hurt and lash out in pain as Dean is.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

That's what I thought too! I mean, it would make sense for Dean (being PTSD'd) to zone out, but Sam? Or well, considering that weird woman he dated (and her complete and utter ... weirdness), it might be he was traumatized as well.

Actually, I read a really good meta the other day that argued that Sam also had PTSD...so, yeah...but um, even with that fact, I think the flashbacks would be of the traumatic experience, not the healing portion afterward. But hey, it's not like I'm a psychologist.

Maybe he just wanted to escape?

Hey, it was my first thought too. ;P

But then again, maybe he didn't want to give it away but since the spectre didn't get any anger from him, it wanted to move on and "forced him" to buy stuff with it? think I'll go with that reason...

Indeed - and it obviously didn't affect the clerk either.

but there are things he would still feel like a sharp knife, even though rationally he KNOWS there is no blame to lay.

Very true - and you see that in things like the fact that he really still isn't over the pain of Sam leaving for Stanford either... I mean, that was a plot point up until S5, after YEARS of Sam proving how much he loved and was loyal to Dean. And even this season, when Dean finds the emails from colleges to Sam, you can still see that hurt there.

Like Sam not looking for him. Rationally, he knows that Sam couldn't have done anything - so why be angry that Sam knew that right away and didn't waste his time?

Very true. It always comes down to Sam not loving him enough - or Dean not being able to see how much Sam does love him... which really all comes down to Dean's low self-esteem.

See, maybe I'm just weird and other people don't feel like that, but sometimes I get angry at things and at people even though I KNOW they aren't to blame - and KNOWING that makes it even worse. Because I have to constantly fight my own anger down, because my rational mind tells me that I'm wrong to feel that way.

Again, very true. It's a fault I constantly have - where I try to apply logic to emotions and of course come up with not understanding anything. :P But yeah, I mean, years and years ago my sister borrowed my sandals (with my permission) and then her boyfriend's dog chewed them up. I was LIVID and frankly, I still hold it against her and I'm loath to lend her anything because I don't trust her to keep any of my things safe. And this is all down to something she really had no control over. Essentially, it was the dogs fault and it could have just as easily happened had I come home and left my sandals in the hall (which I often did).

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Very true. It always comes down to Sam not loving him enough - or Dean not being able to see how much Sam does love him... which really all comes down to Dean's low self-esteem.

Indeed. We know that Sam loves him, and Sam knows that as well. Dean, though, has only Sam's actions to judge Sam's love, and he applies how Dean would act in certain moments as his scale.

But Sam's not Dean, he's not the one who got raised under the strict importance to Keep Sam Safe, so he's a lot more his own person as Dean ever had a chance to be.

Dean didn't know that Sam basically offered his own soul (by drinking demon blood) on a platter just so he could keep his brother alive (as is indicated after "Chris Angel is a douchebag"), he didn't know why Sam started that up again. Because when he knew about the blood, Sam was already too addicted to it to explain the right way, and Dean was too depressed to understand or even ask.

And while Sam would know some of the miles Dean would go just for Sam, a lot of things Dean holds over him (going to Stanford, always rejecting his family...) were the acts of a kid who didn't GET life the same way his dad and Dean did. For him, it was always horrible, and since big brothers probably sport a very tough love towards their little brothers, he didn't know just how far Dean had gone in his youth.
So judging Sam for things he couldn't have known, or well, was too young to really grasp (and too much a teenager) is just as not right... and yet, it would still sting because DEAN knew.

*sigh*

I really love this show.

Oh, and yes, I'm sure Sam had PTSD of his own. Not JUST from Dean being gone (which must have been quite traumatic I guess) but also still some lingering issues from the cage, not to mention the soulless-time.
But yeah, him phasing out on the GOOD times... (but I still bring up Amelia as a good reason for trauma *hides* )

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

"You pout like a unicorn in a whorehouse" - Really, that's just too funny! I imagine that unicorn now, looking suspiciously like Sam with his Puppy-face :-D

Hahaha...well that simile is hilarious, it's actually not what he said. It's "...like a eunuch in a whorehouse" :P

Still, he got over himself and I'm glad he did. Because damn, didn't Garth make sense, right? I like that the writers didn't leave that dangling loose, that end that Bobby's death created for the hunting world.

Me too. Because it was a question I had for all of S7 as soon as Bobby lost his house... I just suddenly wondered where all the hunters were calling for info or to back up their covers.

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Hahaha...well that simile is hilarious, it's actually not what he said. It's "...like a eunuch in a whorehouse" :P

Really????? *blushes bright red*

Damn, but I had so much fun with the unicorn :-( It even makes sense that it would pout... no virgin around anywhere.

I'll stick to the unicorn. As someone said: I reject the reality and substitute my own ;-)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

hmmm, I don't think so. I think he really let Kate go because he felt like she deserved a chance - one that he didn't give Amy, sure, but that was THEN, before Purgatory. He changed some of his views, and that's why he let Kate go. But sure, bringing her up was very convenient for the argument with Sam ;-)

Very true. That was me having a very cynical view of Dean's actions. The truth is probably just that Dean changed his mind about monsters BECAUSE of Benny, and thus let Kate go - and it wasn't a strategic move in order to have something in his back-pocket for the inevitable argument. The fact of the matter is that Dean was probably just trying to NOT be a hypocrite because of a changed attitude after a life-experience. The problem is that Sam didn't have that life experience, and so to him, Dean looks like a huge hypocrite.

So for me, Sam sees it as a kind of... belittling from Dean, that DEAN can decide who lives and who dies, but Sam isn't given the same power/the same benefit of a doubt to decide it.

Well said, and I think it returns to that line Sam says to Dean in 8x01 - "So, free will that's just for you?" Sam's pissed at not being trusted/allowed to make his own life decisions, when Dean IS trusted/allowed.

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

"Also, what kind of drunken idiot teenager doesn't hang on to a 1859 penny in order to see how much they could get off a coin-collector?"--Maybe the kid accidently used the penny to pay for stuff? Or maybe he's just an idiot and doesn't realize it's worth $$, or maybe he even forgot he stole it and had it in his pocket?

"Ugh, Possessed!Dean, you don't even know the definition of WORDS."--I did love this rant. Though in the heat of an argument people do say some nonsensical things. Also I think that even if rationally Dean know Sam isn't responsible for the things soulless!Sam did and that he atoned for S4 events etc that doesn't mean Dean wasn't hurt by those actions. And since Dean deals with things by NOT dealing with them and repressing it's no surprise that he's still hurt by things that happened long ago.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Very true on all counts. I should really try to learn to stop applying logic to emotion. :P

[fourtenpm.livejournal.com]

Sam was wearing a t-shirt in the post-sex cuddling scene.

And the hair, I mean who has perfect hair after sex?! I kept on thinking how did he get his hair in such great shape after supposedly sex, or did they have sex? but that wasn't even bed hair... etc, etc. It had literally distracted me from whatever was going on

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

True, I didn't even think about the hair. :P

[etoile444.livejournal.com]

"We won!" I'd forgotten that Kansas was part of the Union and not the Confederacy, what with the whole: Brown vs. the Board of Education thing and all.

My favorite Soundgarden song is "Burden in My Hand", but I also love "Jesus Christ Pose". I've seen them live 3 times! :)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I've never seen them live. But yeah, Burden in My Hand is my fav of theirs.

I don't know much about American history. So, thanks for letting me know Kansas was Union! That makes Dean's comment accurate as well as hilarious. ;)

[citizen-ephiny.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one who wondered if that poor kid with the asthma ever got his inhaler? Like, did he just slowly suffocate trapped in his jail cell, or did the spectre kindly take the time to give him his medicine before blowing the sheriff away?

Also, I just really love Garth. A lot. And now if Dean or Sam ever have a toothache, they'll know where to go :)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Oh man! I wondered that too! Also, why would they take his inhaler? Do cops really do that? It's not like you can kill someone with an inhaler when you are alone in a prison cell.

I didn't even think of the fact that Dean and Sam now have a dentist! Hahaha... I totally want fic now of Garth arriving to save the day because Dean has a toothache. :)

[keiu-olari.livejournal.com]

Hi! Delurking here (been following your ep reaction for quite some time now, you always pick up on so many interesting details; and I’m a fan of your Sam Is…) because I’ve finally caught up with the 8x06 and ALL THE FEELINGS are reaching fit-to-burst proportions.

Mandatory disclaimer: I like the show, and I've liked every season of it. While I cannot say every episode is my absolute favorite (though I do have a lot of those), I find things I enjoy in each one. And I don’t believe one of the brothers must always be wrong while the other is always right – they have the same right to live in the grey zone and make all the wrong decisions for all the right reasons as the rest of us.

Now that that’s out of the way…

First of all – totally unashamed squee (TM) for Garth! I really like him, as a person, AND I really like the fact that he’s the new Bobby (funnily enough I actually went “OMG he’s the new Bobby” right before Sam asks whether he is)))). He’s an upbeat guy, obviously not half-bad as a hunter since he’s still alive, and, aside of a few personality quirks which may be gross but still largely harmless (taste-mysterious-goo-you-stepped-in, I’m looking at you) is the most balanced, put-together member of the hunting community we’ve seen, including the Winchester brothers. He’s got this “down to earth no nonsense” kinda vibe about him, if it’s making any sense, which really reminds me of Bobby. Add to that the fact that he refuses to take any of the bros’ shit - I mean come on, the guy refused to be intimidated by Dean in S7, and he practically told him off here! Anyone who can do that is worth at least a weighted consideration for Bobby-hood in my book. So yeah, totally with you, experiences aside, he’s a much more suitable candidate for this role than either Dean or Sam.

But the thing that really brought me here is the “Dean and the cursed penny” mishap.

TBC in the second comment, because LJ is severely opposed to my wordiness)))

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hello! Thanks for delurking! I'm glad you've been liking my stuff! :)

You're disclaimer sounds suspiciously like one that I would write! ;)

Yay Garth! I really like him too, for all the reasons you mentioned. I like the fact that he's not a big ball of twisted angst/rage/alcoholism. I like the fact that he gives us a different window into the hunting world - one where it doesn't have to FUBAR you. And yeah, totally more suited to the Bobby-role than Sam and Dean are. Sam and Dean are always jockeying for the role of John Winchester (albeit without burning as many bridges as John seemed to.) :P

[keiu-olari.livejournal.com]

You're disclaimer sounds suspiciously like one that I would write! ;) Any and all plagiarism was done with the best intentions))))

But actually, I've started feeling the need to say this. I mean, it's so much easier for me to relate to Sam, to see where he's coming from, that I'm conscious that for all I like Dean, I'm not too good at getting into his headspace and being understanding to his side of the story. Which is not helped in the least by the fact that my emotions tend to run away with me sometimes (which, in turn, can result in very upset / anxious / whiny / ranty / "what the heck were the writers thinking" comments). So I've decided to make an honest attempt to mitigate the whining that would come :)

[keiu-olari.livejournal.com]

...continued as promised:

Now, see, I get that he was cursed, as such the brain-to-mouth filter was nonexistent; I get that he’s got Purgatory-PTSD on top of Hell-PTSD on top of general-life-that-they-lead-PTSD, not to mention probably enough issues, insecurities and general repressed shit to send every shrink running for professional help. I really, really get all that.

But.

Even understanding where this is coming from, I still can’t make myself “take his side”, as it were, and be sympathetic to his predicament. And I think I could’ve, if only it was about the “you didn’t look for me and lived with a girl” deal. While I also get that Sam had his own valid reasons for this, as you’ve pointed out (not to mention there HAS to be something deeper here plot-wise we’re not being told yet), nobody in their right mind could begrudge Dean being pissed-off and feeling hurt about it. Hell, I would’ve been. The part that bothers me is all the other stuff that went along with it. And it bothers me because of how that confrontation ended.

Garth picks up the penny, and nothing happens, because he lets shit go. So what I’ve taken away from Dean’s reaction to the specter is that he’s still holding on to all these grudges, after all this time and all Sam’s done to atone. Even though there were some points in the previous seasons where Dean admitted he wasn’t exactly all white and fluffy himself (S5’s “Fallen Idols” comes to mind), and there even was a blanket apology for all the crap anybody’s done somewhere out there in S6. So this reaction right now is making me question: did he really mean any of it? It’s not the first time I catch myself thinking that Dean’s “sorry” has an expiry date of sorts – he may be sincere when he’s saying it, but it eventually runs out.

Unless of course, I’m missing a key detail somewhere, and am reading this completely wrong (please somebody convince me I’m reading this completely wrong?)

I’m not even going to get onto the soapbox about all the reasons why this hits me like a two-by-four (with the mistakes/choices bit being a two-by-four with nails stuck in it), you’ve got it all down so concisely. I’m just at this weird place right now where I’m not really sure what’s happening in the show, and both the brothers feel disconnected and kinda off for me, especially after S7’s “stone number one”. A large part of that is probably due to the writers using the character changes to drive the “one year later” point home, but I still can’t help feeling apprehensive. It does remind me a lot of the first half of S6, though, so I can only hope that these issues will get addressed and somewhat resolved sometime in the future.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I actually DO think that Dean has let that stuff go...but I think what happened was that Dean waged the classic "old grudges" war when he got angry with Sam. Dean was angry about not being looked for (personally, I think he's not really angry at SAM for this, but its easier to take it out on Sam)...and so it's sort of like two spouses arguing...or well, siblings...when you get into a yelling match, it becomes less about what your actually yelling about and more about just hurting the other person.

I think after the whole "you should have looked for me" thing, Dean is just out to hurt Sam - and he knows that he can do that by bringing up the things that Sam got himself tortured for an eternity in order to be forgiven for.

So, yeah, it's not that Dean's "sorry" has expired - it's that if anyone knows how to twist a knife, it's Dean, and that's just what he's doing. It doesn't have to be true to hurt.

That's my explanation anyhow. I might just be making excuses, because I DO agree with you - these things are in the past and Dean HAS forgiven Sam of them completely. I mean, case in point, Dean was ALWAYS adamant that Sam couldn't be held responsible for Soulless!Sam's behaviour - yet, in this argument half the stuff he yells at Sam for was actually Soulless!Sam. Garth was right when he said "It's not Dean."

I think we need to hear more of Sam's storyline to figure out what exactly is going on in the brother's relationship at the moment. We're only working with half the picture really, which is I think why things feel a little disconnected and off. So, yeah, as you say, I wouldn't fret until the whole picture comes into focus and we see if these issues are addressed or not. :)

[keiu-olari.livejournal.com]

hmmm... I actually haven't thought of that, I guess, because in all previous cases the curse's effect seemed to be "bring up harbored grudge, kill wrongdoer". But your explanation does sound reasonable, plus maybe the two of them being brothers somehow made the curse play out differently... So yeah, rolling along with it. *nods decisively* Dean lashing out under the influence of a curse is certainly easier to swallow than the thought that he consciously carried all these grudges with him all this time (but still sad - true that no one knows how to twist a knife better than family, but you'll feel like shit... And I want them to get along already, dammit! Why won't they just talk it out... or, y'know, hug it out, and get along?)))

Thanks for the calming vibe! :)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Dean also states at the end of the episode that he can't even remember what he said to Sam while he was possessed...which is in keeping with the other victims of the possession too. (The wife at the beginning only remembered flashes and rage, and had no idea what Ms. Alcott had to do with anything - even though she was her "grudge.")

So, yeah, I think Dean's completely oblivious to how he twisted that knife into Sam - he just knows that Sam wants him to "move on"...so, yeah, probably the only thing that HAD been bugging Dean was Sam giving up hunting and not looking for Dean, and Dean hasn't brought it up since. (Though, in fairness, we've only had one episode since and Dean was a little distracted...so we'll see.)