hells_half_acre: (Worried!Sam)
[personal profile] hells_half_acre
Behold: My very first fanvid ever...it's not perfect, but hopefully it's passable?

Song Title/Vid Title: Supernatural Type Thing
Artist: Stone Temple Pilots - Sex Type Thing.
Category: Meta
Characters: Sam and Dean Winchester
Warnings: This vid is about sexual assault - so, yeah...enter at your own risk
Summary: An exploration of sexual assault against Sam and Dean so far. 



AVI versions:
CLICK HERE TO DOWNLOAD!
CLICK HERE TO WATCH! 

Notes: There aren't any songs out there about sexual assault against males, so I had to make do. Though, by using this song, I did get an awesome opportunity to compare Sam's body to a sexy dress.
 

Male Sexual Assault in Supernatural

One of the things that first drew me to Supernatural (other than the fantastic characters, actors, and story) was the fact that it had this subtheme of sexual assault against males. Not many shows go there, or at least, not any shows that I’ve ever watched. Supernatural doesn’t shy away from it, and, if anything it’s become increasingly important over the years.

Come with me, while we explore some of the major events of this theme throughout the series...

Note: For the purposes of this meta, I’ve taken the position that rape can only occur when there is a soul present. This means that Ruby’s empty vessel used in S4 is not an issue. And although Sam might still have issues with what happened to his body in Swap Meat, for the purposes of this meta, I’m ignoring that episode (also, I just didn’t like it very much and I like to ignore it anyway.)

Season 1

The Woman in White

Supernatural dives right into the theme, when Sam is sexually assaulted in the PILOT! The Woman in White forcibly locks Sam in the car, commanders the vehicle, and when Sam still refuses to bend to her wishes, she straddles him and begins to grind against him and kiss him – whilst Sam winces below her. In this case, as the woman is a Supernatural being, we do not actually know the strength of the force she is holding Sam down with.

Sam eventually tries to use her distraction to his advantage and reaches for the keys, which, of course, is when the ghost decides just to kill him and Dean comes to the rescue.

Shadow

Next we have Meg. It’s true, when Sam first meets her and thinks she is human, there is some flirting; however, I hardly think that gives her consent to tie both Sam and Dean to posts and then molest them (Sam especially), once they discover she’s a demon.
Again, in this instance, Sam eventually uses her distraction to his advantage – making her focus on him instead of the fact that both he and Dean are trying to cut through their bonds.

Devil’s Trap and the YED

We have the good old Yellow Eyed Demon, who takes over John – and this marks the first time that Dean is the focus of the attack, and also the first time it is a case of male>male “sexualized” violence. Now, granted, this isn’t an overtly sexual attack. It’s more of a leering threat. You could argue that the YED just likes to stand really close to whoever he is talking to – but in my opinion, there’s more than just that going on.

Possession in itself is part of the theme. In Supernatural, Sam and Dean always speak of the possessed and the act of being possessed in sexual terms, “riding” being the most frequent verb. The entity is inside the person against their will (in the case of demons), and is controlling their body without their consent – it very much is a form of rape, where the person no longer has a say in how their body is used or treated as they are held at bay by a much stronger being (in cases of both demons and angels.)

Usually, possession is used as a metaphor for man’s darker-side or alcoholism or mental illness – however, in Supernatural I’ve always interpreted it as a metaphor for sexual assault and I think that it symbolises the loss of control of one’s own body, and more importantly, the use of one’s body by a stronger sinister force for their own pleasure.

So, in Devil’s Trap, we not only have John’s invasion of Dean’s personal space while they talk and his rather sinister leering, we also have John himself as a victim as well.

Season 2

Of course, Season 2 gives us the crossroads demon kissing Dean in Crossroad Blues. This doesn’t really count, as Dean doesn’t realize that this is how deals are sealed, and there’s not necessarily a sexual threat of anything else happening. Still, we get Dean’s great line of:

   I usually like to be warned before I'm violated with demon tongue.   

Meg in Born Under A Bad Sign

Season two also gives us the return of Meg – and this time, she takes her treatment of Sam to the next level, by possessing him. As I said above, possession in Supernatural, is akin to rape. 

In this episode, we have another scene of assault where both parties are in fact being assaulted simultaneously by a third, unseen, party. This is the scene between Meg!Sam and Jo at the bar in Duluth. So, we have female>male>female violence. Sam, under seemingly varying stages of consciousness, must witness as his body not only murders a fellow hunter, but assaults Jo and shoots Dean.

At the end of the episode, we get more talk of possession in a way that likens it to sex:

BOBBY:  Charms. They'll fend off possession. That demon's still out there; this'll stop it from getting back up in you.

DEAN: That sounds vaguely dirty, but uh, thanks.

And...

 DEAN: Dude, you, you like, full-on had a girl inside you for like a whole week. (laughs) That's pretty naughty. 

In this episode, our boys end by laughing about the sexual-component of possession. This isn’t to make light of it, but rather doing what people do best and using humour and laughter as a defense against the darker aspects of what had just happened. In this case, Dean does it specifically to let Sam know that everything is going to be okay, to give Sam permission to “laugh it off” rather than deal with it – in later seasons, Dean does the same thing in order to put up walls and shields around his own experiences.

Season 3

Jus in Bello

Season 3 stays relatively sexual assault free. We do have a massive possession-themed episode in Jus In Bello, however, and that still ties in with our theme. In the same episode, we have Henriksen commenting on what he thinks he knows about the Winchesters:

  HENRIKSEN: Oh, yeah. I forgot. You fight monsters. Sorry, Dean. Truth is, your daddy brainwashed you with all that devil talk and no doubt touched you in a bad place. That’s all, that’s reality.  

In this case, although Henriksen’s assumption is wrong, I think it’s interesting that this line occurs within an episode that features possession heavily.

No Rest for the Wicked

Here, we see Lilith for the first time since Jus In Bello. Once she takes over Ruby’s meatsuit, one of the first things she does is kiss Sam against his will.

Season 4

Season 4 is when they take everything to the next level. So, instead of going through episodically, I’m going to talk about two major events, but first...

YED

Again, with Dean’s trip to the past, we have the YED getting very up close and personal. He restrains Dean to a chair and then leans into his personal space – smelling him, and then just staying there and leering. Also, poor Samuel Campbell is being possessed and forced to kill his wife, himself, and make-out with his daughter.

Now, the two major topics...

Dean’s Experience in Hell

When Dean returns from Hell, he lies to Sam and says he can’t remember any of it. However, we slowly see that all is not right with Dean – he drinks more, he sleeps less, he’s moody and irritable and despite a light moment here and there, generally unhappy. Dean finally admits to remembering, and eventually tells Sam a little about the experience.

Dean talks about the torture, and how he turned torturer himself; however, people, particularly men, will sooner admit to being victims of physical violence than admit to being victims of sexual violence and, I believe, this occurs with Dean. Furthermore, I think, over time, that Sam comes to realize this (I’ll get to that later.)

Season 4 is very much about emasculating Dean, and putting him in a more vulnerable and less “manly” position than we are used to seeing him in: In Yellow Fever, he gets a sickness that makes him extremely frightened; in Monster Movie, he’s dressed in a ridiculous costume (to American standards) and restrained to a table; in After School Special we see him in another ridiculous costume. Furthermore, more, we see him (in Wishful Thinking) having nightmares in which he cries out “No!” (one could assume it’s a denial against turning torturer, but one could also assume it’s a denial of any number of things.) All of these things, plus Sam’s previous failure to save Dean, lead Sam to take a more actively protective role towards Dean, which both complicates their dynamic and causes Sam to make bad decisions.

When we do meet Dean’s torturer, Alistair, his dialogue to Dean speaks just as much to sexual assault as it does to physical. In his first scene, Alistair introduces himself:

ALISTAIR: Come on, Dean. Don't you recognize me? Oh,I forgot -- I'm wearing a pediatrician. But we were so close... In hell.

More telling, however is in On the Head of a Pin, when Dean enters the room Alistair in which Alistair is imprisoned, and Alistair begins to sing:

Heaven, I’m in Heaven, and my heart beats so, that I can hardly speak. I seem to find the happiness I seek, when we’re out together dancing cheek to cheek

A song that is far more fitting for a lover than just a torture victim. And throughout the torture session, the allusions to sexual violence continue:

ALISTAIR: You have not disappointed me so far. Come on. You gotta want a little payback for everything I did to you. For all the pokes and prods. Hm?
...
ALISTAIR: But daddy's little girl, he broke. He broke in thirty. Oh, just not the man your daddy wanted you to be, huh, Dean?

Of course, the act of turning Dean into a torturer is a kind of rape in itself – as basically it is forcing Dean to consent to do something he would not ordinarily consent to. We also don’t know if, in Dean’s turn as torturer, he may have used sexual violence on his victims as well. When Dean tells Sam about it, he describes it vaguely, referring only to “The things that I did to them.”

Further evidence of Dean’s time in Hell comes to use in Season 6, and I’ll discuss it more under that heading.

Sam and Ruby

Sam and Ruby are having sex throughout Season 4. We can infer this after the very first episode. We find out later that Sam is also using Ruby as a drug source. Before we discover Sam’s addiction however, we first learn how him and Ruby came to be in a relationship – through Sam’s own retelling.

This is important: what we see is NOT consensual sex, even though Sam himself has recontextualized it by the time he tells the story – in no way was Ruby morally in the right during their first sexual encounter. When we think of rape, we tend to think of someone using physical force to restrain and violate another person. More often than not though, rape does not occur in that form – especially when rape occurs within the confines of a pre-existing relationship. It can also come in the form of someone who is emotionally/mentally vulnerable being manipulated into acts that they would not agree to otherwise.

This is what Ruby does to Sam in the flashbacks of I Know What You Did Last Summer. Sam, riddled with suicidal grief, is drinking heavily, and Ruby takes full advantage of his compromised emotional state. Dean calls it out for what it was immediately after Sam tells him, saying:

 Okay, well, uh, brain-stabbing imagery aside... So far, all you've told me about is a manipulative bitch who, uh, screwed you, played mind games with you, and did everything in the book to get you to go bad. 

Sam hastens to tell Dean about how Ruby then subsequently saved his life, as though this forgives her for “playing mind games” with him. Dean makes the same mistake as Sam, and this seems to make a difference in his opinion of her. We all know of course, that just because your lover is kind to you the next day, doesn’t mean you should forgive them for emotionally/sexually abusing you – sadly, Sam doesn’t seem to know this. Instead, he decides to continue the relationship as though it were his choice to begin with – instead of admitting that Ruby took that choice away from him through her manipulation.

The Siren, and the introduction of “The Supernatural Roofie”

Season 4 also gives us the first Supernatural Roofie – this time, in the form of Siren venom, which the Siren slips into Dean’s flask, thus bringing Dean under his control. While the Siren seems intent on playing a platonic bromance scenario, instead of a sexual scenario – the imagery is still one that is highly sexualized.

Sam walks in to find the Siren sitting on the bed – in a red hotel room, I may add – at which point, Sam is tackled and restrained by a “roofied” Dean. The Siren then sprays Sam’s face with a bodily fluid that is ejected from a “stinger” type appendage in the Siren’s mouth. Sam himself is then roofied – the Siren, at this point, probably could have had sex with both of them (fanfic pwp!) but instead has them fight each other to the death.

Castiel/Jimmy

Angelic possession is the dub-con of the Supernatural world. The human must give consent, but hardly knows what they are getting themselves into. Furthermore, once they give consent, any further choice is stripped away from them. Did Uriel’s vessel know that he was going to be an agent of Lucifer? I doubt it. When Jimmy was without Castiel in The Rapture, we discovered that the once devote man was now embittered towards his religion and that he resented Castiel. His only reason for consenting yet again to Castiel at the end of the episode was to spare his daughter the horrible fate. Although Jimmy was not able to be aware for most of his time with Castiel, I would still say that had Castiel had sex while Jimmy was there, it would be a rape of Jimmy (in addition to the metaphorical rape of already being a vessel).

Now, post S4, we cannot be certain whether Jimmy still resides inside his body. Presumably, both Castiel and Jimmy were destroyed by Raphael in Lucifer Rising/Sympathy for the Devil. Castiel was then resurrected by God. It’s not clear whether Jimmy was resurrected as well. In My Bloody Valentine, Castiel’s craving for hamburgers is blamed on his vessel, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Jimmy’s soul is still present. As we see in Season 6, Sam’s body still has cravings as well and can function, even though his soul is not present.

Season 5

In Season 5, we deal mainly with the issue of possession – specifically angelic-possession. With the main storyline being that Lucifer wants to ride Sam and Michael wants to ride Dean, we are treated to a cornucopia of male rape innuendo, mostly, of course, coming to us through Dean’s reactions:

“Oh, yeah. Life as an angel condom. That's real fun. I think I'll pass, thanks”

And..

“...and there's an archangel there wanting me to drop the soap”

...are the two examples that spring to mind immediately.

Meg Returns!

Meg arrives as she means to go on. One of the first things she does is forcibly kiss Dean for absolutely no reason – or, just to remind us that she likes to molest the boys. In Abandon All Hope, she also has some heated interaction with Castiel.

Also, I should mention that Bobby gets possessed in the first episode of Season 5 as well, making Dean the only character not to be possessed, until the Khan worm in Season 6.

Sam Tied To Cots and Tables!

In Sam, Interrupted (5x11), Sam is tied to a cot in a padded room, while a female wraith licks the sweat off his forehead and then brandishes a phallic-like spike – though, she wants to stick it in his brain, not anywhere else. Also, I forgot to mention in Season 4, that Sam was tied to a table while two ghouls poked holes in him and then licked the blood from his skin. Really, I think “Sam tied down” could be a theme in and of itself.

Lucifer/Sam

This is a storyline that spans three seasons – and it is really when they start getting more blatant with the theme.

In Season 5, Lucifer introduces himself to Sam while in Sam’s bed disguised as his dead girlfriend. Sam, not realizing who it is, kisses “Jess” tenderly on the neck when he wakes to find her there. Lucifer, as Jess, then pets Sam gently while Sam talks to “her”.  After Lucifer reveals himself and Sam leaps from the bed, Lucifer leaves the unmade bed, only to corner Sam against it.

At the end of the season, when Sam says yes to Lucifer in order to defeat him. Lucifer continues to mention the sexual connotations of the possession, by telling Sam that they were “MFEO” (made for each other) – a term that is used for lovers.
 
Season 6

The Lucifer/Sam storyline gets a hiatus, as Sam first is soulless, and then cannot remember the tortures of the cage. Instead, the focus in this theme is brought back to Dean, and we get a further exploration of his experience with assault. That being said, we do get references to what might be happening to Sam's soul in the cage, and I think Balthazar puts it the most succinctly in Appointment in Samarra (6x11):

BALTHAZAR: Well. The plot thickens. Where's your soul, Sam? Good God, no. It's not still...It is.
SAM: My brother found a way to put it back in me. I don't want it.
BALTHAZAR: No, you don't. No, no, 'cause Michael and Lucy are hate-banging it as we speak.

But, back to Dean - There is a great meta about Torture and Rape in Season 6 by [livejournal.com profile] amonitrate, and I think she is far more articulate than I am – so I suggest you check it out.

Most importantly, I’d like to draw your attention to the following from amonitrate’s meta:
  1.       The references to rape have been made mostly by or about Dean. In 6.09 they are played primarily for laughs (the lines about alien probing and “servicing” Oberon), but in my opinion the jokes are muddied by the fact that Dean's reactions, his anxiety and revulsion, are played fairly realistically and straightforward and without the over the top slapstick humor of some of the other episodes which poke fun at his averse reactions to an event, such as the first half or so of “Yellow Fever.”  [...]Instead, Dean comes off extremely defensive when he makes them, especially to Meg's lackey (“Are you gonna kiss me?”) and to the two ghouls sent to eat him (the Shawshank line, which is the second reference to rape and showers in the episode and the third between 6.09-6.10).... 
  2.       I think we can easily throw in "Live Free or Twihard," 6.05. Not only is the entire opening sequence played like a seduction followed by a rape, but we have Dean making references to how "rapey" the twilight-knockoff books are; Dean being violently assaulted, held down, and turned into a vampire against his will after being called "pretty;" the later subtext of sexual coercion between Dean and the vamp who turned him in the "private tour" line; the allusions to trafficking in the way the vamp in charge of the nest treats the women he's "recruited;"....  
  3.       I am probably oversimplifying by stating that some of the rape references are not being played as jokes, and I realize many people will disagree with me as to the writers' intentions. For the most part they do occur when Dean is making a joke; but it seems an odd coincidence that suddenly most of Dean's defensive jokes are rape-related. And most of these jokes barely come across as jokes, per se; instead they seem to be the result of Dean covering discomfort or anxiety.
What Season 6 Might Tell Us About Dean’s Time in Hell

I think [livejournal.com profile] amonitrate has a point about how Dean’s defensive jokes become rape-related, especially in the first half of the season, when he returns to Hunting after a year of healing at Lisa’s.

From the first episode of Season 4 to the last episode of Season 5, Dean didn’t stop hunting nor take a break – the stakes were too high to focus on himself. He threw himself more into the work in order to avoid dealing with his own issues – as Sam points out at the beginning of Family Remains (4x11). I would imagine, that once Dean arrived at Lisa’s and did not have anything to distract him, there was a very large crash that occurred. Dean would have been forced to deal with at least some of the trauma of the past two years.

That being said, I think his constant defensiveness when it comes to rape – his reaction to the assault in Live Free or Twi-Hard (which, was another blatant sexual assault) – is part of Dean trying to deal and recover from what happened to him in Hell.

He also alludes to it in All Dogs Go To Heaven (6x08), when he suggests that they make sure that Mandy is indeed a werewolf before they hand her over to “an eternity of demon rape.” Now, Dean knows that they are handing monsters over to Crowley for “torture”, yet Dean specifically uses the term “rape” here, as though the two are synonymous...and because Dean has the experience of being tortured by demons, this only leads me to believe that they are in fact one and the same.

Furthermore, in the very next episode, Clap Hands If You Believe (6x09), a line of Sam’s tells us that Sam could very well know full well about Dean’s past experience with being raped in Hell. When Dean gets back from his “alien abduction” – he tells Sam about in an extremely agitated state.  Sam, being soulless, is not the most comforting presence, though he attempts to be. He tells Dean that it’s a “safe room” and when he mentions a possible “probing table” and Dean tells him “don’t say that out loud!” he doesn’t question why. After Dean is finished his story, we get this exchange:

SAM: You should take a shower.
DEAN: I should take a shower. I’m gonna, I’m gonna take a shower now.

Dean’s reference to needing a “daily rape shower” in the next episode comes into play here – where Sam already knows that having a shower will make Dean feel better. To me, this all indicates that by the time Season 6 occurs, without having to be told, Sam has already logically figured out the full extent of his brother’s time in Hell.

As I said, the theme of rape and sexualized violence is extremely heavy in the first half of the season, and relatively light in the second half. I think this is also deliberate. While Sam’s soul is still being continually assaulted in the cage, Dean is being continually assaulted on earth – it might be a stretch, but I think it fits with the mirror theme of that season.

Season 7 (so far)

We get a return to “The Supernatural Roofie” in Season 7, Time for a Wedding (7x08) – when Becky drugs Sam into falling in love and then marrying her. This episode was mostly for laughs and no sex took place, the fact remains that Sam’s state of mind was forcibly altered in order to make him do something against his will. Not to mention the part where he is tied spread-eagled on a bed without his pants. Certainly, not something you want to do to someone who just returned from being raped by Lucifer for a year and a half...

A Return to Lucifer/Sam

Season 7 starts off with the bluntly stated fact that one of the boys has been raped. This comes courtesy of Sam’s Lucifer hallucination. In the carry-through scene bridging Meet The New Boss (7x01) and Hello Cruel World (7x02). We have ‘Lucifer’ say the following lines:
LUCIFER: Hi, Sam. Long time, no spooning.

And...

LUCIFER:  You’re still in my cell. You’re my bunkmate, buddy. You’re my little bitch, in every sense of the term.

In this case, we do not have to rely on inference. We have it as fact, from Sam’s own memories and mind, that Sam was sexually assaulted by Lucifer while he was trapped in the cage for a year and a half.

And that brings us up to the present. I have to wonder if Sam will ever outright TELL Dean about that part of his torture. Or perhaps, given Dean’s own experiences, Sam (and the audience) can safely assume that Dean already knows.

It’ll be interesting to see where they take this theme in the future – is Sam as fine as he seems to be? Is this shared trauma between the Winchesters something they even need to talk about? Is the fact that both of our protagonists are PTSD-suffering rape victims of any plot importance whatsoever? Only time will tell.

ETA: Some Follow Up Reading:

[livejournal.com profile] blubird_pie has a meta on Sexual Objectification of Males on Supernatural. Including, in comments, a great paragraph about angel possession and Michael as representative of rape culture.

[livejournal.com profile] chasingtides has a two part meta. The first, about possession and sex in Supernatural, and the second, thorns and stings, clarifies her original argument, talks specifically about angel possession as well as depictions of male rape in media.

Date: 2011-11-29 05:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raloria.livejournal.com
The video's been blocked already for copyright infringement. :(
Damn youtube.

Date: 2011-11-29 05:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Dammit! Ok...um...I guess I'll go sign up with vimeo or something...

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From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com - Date: 2011-11-29 07:14 am (UTC) - Expand

Maybe... but LJ....

Date: 2011-11-29 11:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harsens-rob.livejournal.com
Maybe YouTube has been blocked, but my LJ linked worked, so ... well, considering the subject matter... uh, yay?

I always considered something sexual between YED and Dean, but before that, I always wondered if there was a sexual vibe between Sammy & YED.

It seemed to me, anyway, that YED was [u]much[/u] more invested in Sam than anyone else, but I thought - perhaps - I was reading too much into it. In a meta sense, this was before (I believe), Eric & etc. became aware and embraced the slash undertones with Dean/Cas among fandom ... they may not have embraced any meaning behind YED & Dean during his time in Hell, or Sammy prior.

On a separate note ... isn't the fact it's free to see (i.e. you're not making a profit off the faces of Jensen, Jared, Misha or whoever owns SPN [I'm assuming Kripke or WB or whoever the production company is] mean that you're not violating copyright? Yeah..., I don't know the legal ins or outs ... and there is a diff between somebody open to fan works like Joss - and anyone else not so open to it]).

Anyway - I always find male manipulation/rape more acceptable than women in the same position... I can only presume because I've been influenced by pop cult. (I'm 44 - so I grew up during the heyday of the 70's-80's when EVERY woman was expected to pop their top.) I wonder about that... and I'm glad that I at least question myself about my reactions.

Re: Maybe... but LJ....

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Date: 2011-11-29 05:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mymuseandi.livejournal.com
It's been blocked due to copyright grounds :( Do you have a download for us to see?

Date: 2011-11-29 05:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
I'm currently trying to find an alternative...unfortunately, it means I have to re-upload the vid, so it's going to take a bit. Sigh.

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Date: 2011-11-29 05:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vail-kagami.livejournal.com
I, too, would love to see that video. Did you by any chance upload it on 4shared or any other side that doesn't block?

Date: 2011-11-29 05:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Looking into that now...vimeo has too small of an upload limit. I'm currently uploading it to 4shared, but it's taking a bit. Sigh...stupid youtube.

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Date: 2011-11-29 11:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katsheswims.livejournal.com
I was waiting for you to post something like this-and your video! I think the video was great for your first time making one! I need to watch it again to get the full effect.

You even brought up a couple instances I didn't notice before. I never really connected the YED's leering to this issue, but I saw it in your video, and then I read what you wrote about him too.

I think the show will never come right out and have Dean or Sam say to each other/or anyone that they were raped. I think it will keep being the implications we've seen so far. (Though I would love for them to come right out and talk about it!-Maybe in Dean's coming break down?)

Keep up the good work on this!

Date: 2011-11-30 12:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thanks! I'm fairly proud of it, considering it was my first time and I'm using software I've never used before.

I think you are right, in that it will continue to be implied, but never spoken about - I don't have an issue with that at all, as it's very realistic to me. That being said, I'd be very interested if they DID speak about it.

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Date: 2011-11-30 12:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vail-kagami.livejournal.com
Finally watched the video. Loved it! It's a great complementation of your meta.

I forgot what a great Alastair Christopher Heyerdal was. He's just perfect for that kind of role.

And Sam and Ruby - their insane chemestry kind of distracts from it, but Sam doesn't look all tha happy when he gives in. Huh.

Date: 2011-11-30 07:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
I'm always so uncomfortable watching the Sam/Ruby scene - as my friend says, "it's wrong on so many levels" haha..least of which is that I suddenly feel rather voyeuristic because I know the actors actually DO and HAVE had sex :P But yeah, I seem to be one of the only fans who don't think of it as consensual.

Christopher Heyerdaal was amazing. I forget where I heard it, but I remember Jensen saying that during the scenes in On The Head of a Pin, Christopher was "acting circles" around him. ;)

Anyway, glad you enjoyed!

Thank you for this.

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Re: Thank you for this.

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Date: 2011-12-01 12:28 am (UTC)
eosrose: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eosrose
Fascinating recap! And, yes, I've noticed this myself. Actually, I think your argument about Jimmy being violated by Castiel's possession is one of the primary reasons I've had trouble with the Castiel/Dean ship. I don't hate the ship, I see why people like it and I generally enjoy the undertones in the show, but...it always comes back to poor Jimmy for me. XD

Is it odd that I find it refreshing that they aren't beating around the bush about the fact that Lucifer (and probably Michael) raped Sam? It sort of bothered me that nothing was openly said about how rape must have been one of the ways Dean was tortured in hell. It would certainly explain his apparent lack of sexual appetite after he came back. Personally, I think Sam and Dean both need to talk about their experiences (maybe with a professional counselor, even if they can't reveal the whole truth) and clear the air.

Hunters need some mental health professionals on their side. Badly.

Date: 2011-12-01 12:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thanks! I'm glad you liked it. :)

And yes, besides the fact that I think of angels as primarily non-sexual beings (not for reasons of purity, but for reasons of personality), I also have trouble with the Dean/Castiel ship because of the Jimmy issue. Really, I like to believe that Jimmy is NOT still around and that Cas is now the only one in that body.

I don't think it's odd that you find them not beating around the bush refreshing. I too find it refreshing. It's so very rare that male sexual assault gets mentioned or dealt with in TVland...that I like the fact that Supernatural hasn't shied away from outright saying it. Part of me does hope that it gets talked about some more...at the very least, because, like you, I think the boys could really use some help.

If we assume Dean was raped in hell - it really does give new perspective to both his insistence that he was "re-hymenated" in Monster Movie, as well as the tender love making with Anna in Heaven and Hell (the only person who probably had full knowledge of what his tortures consisted of).

Date: 2011-12-01 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jasmineisland.livejournal.com
Wow. Insightful. I thought the same thing over various scenes, but to see it all listed here concisely?
Poor boys.......

Date: 2011-12-01 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Poor boys indeed!

This was crazy to type up, because I was just going by memory, so I'm sure I've even missed some instances.

Date: 2011-12-01 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marlowe78.livejournal.com
Hey you!

Congrats for the vid, it's pretty cool. I must say, I don't really take to the song you chose. I didn't listen to the the lyrics (which I probably should have?) but the rhythmm is in my opinion too heavy and not creepy enough.

But that's just me. And the cuts and the chosen scenes are well-picked, I like the thing you created there :-)

Also, I very much like how you picked up the same things I did in s6
As I said, the theme of rape and sexualized violence is extremely heavy in the first half of the season, and relatively light in the second half.

I was a bit disappointed that the whole buildup ran into nothing. I was expecting more, a big blowup or something. But nothing of that kind... maybe we'll get it later on?

I'm pretty damn sure the rape-references in s6 were deliberate, DEFINITELY the scene with Dean's abduction by fairies. Maybe it was done to put emphasise on Sam's time in the cage? But I dunno, it IS a completely different thing, as has been stated more than once.
So the same rules didn't stand for Sam as did for Dean - and I'm pretty sure Sam wasn't ever offered to take up a knife...

Anyway, I've been fascinated with the way this show turns the table on the assault-theme. It might get into being mysogin... whatever now, but they basically turn the big, burly, strong MEN into the victims, making (often) pretty, slim girls the offenders.
Or relatives (possessed, but still) and friends or cute little tinkerbells.
I don't know how much of it is planned, but it's still a theme you can follow. The "rules of society" don't work for the Winchesters, in more ways than the obvious.

Btw, as I see your vid, the actors who get to leer and touch and hint at our boys are doing a great job, especially the parental figures. John as YED? Samuel as the same? *shudder*

Date: 2011-12-01 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yeah, Stone Temple Pilots aren't really a favourite band of mine or anything...but the lyrics (just look them up if you don't want to listen to the song again) really fit the them. I tried to find a different song that fit as well, but I couldn't. :( Also, I discovered that while there are a few songs out there about boys being molested when young or being beaten when old, there are no songs about adult men being sexually abused. So, the song was the best I could find, though it still has the more traditional gender roles.

Yeah, I was also wondering in S6 if they were actually going to go somewhere with the rape theme, but it seemed that as soon as Sam got his soul back, it disappeared. So, I figure it was meant only as a mirror to what Sam's soul was going through.

Sam definitely had a vastly different Hell experience than Dean. He wasn't given the choice to take up the knife, because they didn't need him to. They needed Dean to break and the righteous man to become a torturer - but Lucifer and Michael (in particular Lucifer, it seems) just wanted Sam to suffer for eternity.

And yes, I love the way the show turns the table on the assault-theme too...the fact that these too BAMF heroes can also be the victims of assault is a very important thing to do, I believe - even if they never fully address it.

Btw, as I see your vid, the actors who get to leer and touch and hint at our boys are doing a great job, especially the parental figures. John as YED? Samuel as the same? *shudder*

I agree. Also, when I was making my video, I realized how good Jensen was at looking utterly repulsed and uncomfortable while being leered at.

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Date: 2011-12-04 05:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 4422shini.livejournal.com
Hehehehe! My, those boys do get raped a lot, don't they?
That was quite enjoyable! Thanks for posting!

Date: 2011-12-04 06:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Haha, yes they do.

Glad you enjoyed! :)

Date: 2011-12-07 08:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] juppschmitz.livejournal.com
Brilliant meta!!

Oh, and do you remember the scene in Criss Angel back in season 4, when Dean gets sent to the SM-club? Just look at his expression just after your man says Oh, you ain't been had till you been had by the Chief. Telling, isn't it?

(Amazingly enough I tried to find this scene on youtube and it's listed under Funniest scene: Supernatural [4x12] Criss Angel Is A Douchebag. Wtf? How is that scene funny in the context of Dean's time in hell?)

Date: 2011-12-07 08:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thanks! And yeah - it's amazing what a little context can do. I didn't talk about that scene, but it fits right in there with how Dean's reactions to things tell us more about his time in hell than Dean actually verbally tells us.

Date: 2011-12-07 10:03 am (UTC)
ext_1103499: (dean/cas)
From: [identity profile] riotgrrlhotel.livejournal.com
Great article. I think somewhere along these lines is why we don't see many female actors in main roles..perhaps?

Date: 2011-12-07 10:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thank you!

As for your question - I think that's a whole other kettle of fish, but I'm sure it's all related in some crazy tangle of lines.

kettle of fish

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Date: 2011-12-07 02:18 pm (UTC)
ext_29986: (strength)
From: [identity profile] fannishliss.livejournal.com
You've done a wonderful job here pulling the various threads together into a cohesive tapestry around an issue that is a very hot button for people.

I think the most important aspect of your meta is the issue of Dean's joking about rape, something that I think has offended many people, who see it as Dean making light of victimization or using language that perpetuates rape culture. But as you point out, it's a way for his character to try and deal with things that have happened to him. He too is a vulnerable person, and after all the evidence you present here, the possibility that he himself has been raped is pretty much undeniable.

For Dean and Sam to have gone through all the horrors they have makes them more real for me. I wouldn't care about them the way I do if they just fought monsters and came away unscathed. For me, season Four was the pinnacle of what Supernatural has been able to accomplish -- taking to the extreme the idea of Sam and Dean as heroes who themselves are victims, and who sometimes make the wrong choice and do the bad thing. To me, that's the most gripping tale of human nature in triumph against adversity on an epic scale.

Date: 2011-12-07 05:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
I agree. I remember a lot of people being offended by Dean's jokes in S6, and yet I wasn't - and it was because I knew that there must be a REASON for the jokes (beyond the idea that the writers were suddenly 'getting Dean wrong' or perpetuating rape culture).

I feel the same way about S4. Up until S4, I wouldn't have argued if you called me a Dean girl...but it took Sam making the huge mistake he made in S4, being manipulated, taken advantage of, and then seduced into making a bad decision, for me to love Sam. (It goes without saying, that my already established fondness for Dean was only strengthened by seeing him go through S4 as well).

I think that's why I have trouble watching some other shows now, where the lead characters swoop in to save the day and the only setbacks and injuries they suffer are physical and easily ignored - they don't have to struggle through adversity like the Winchesters, nor learn (healthily or not) with being true victims. They're shows are entertaining, but hardly gripping.

Date: 2011-12-07 09:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reliand.livejournal.com
wow...um, it's like some of our thoughts our synchronized. I'm writing a paper for a class on gender and sexuality within Supernatural and the stuff on demon rape/assault! \o/

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it

Date: 2011-12-07 09:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
YAY! I'd be interested to read your paper. I've always felt like I'm the only one that sees this. So, it's a balm to my soul that you see it too! :)

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Date: 2011-12-08 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amonitrate.livejournal.com
Thank you so much for this essay! I really appreciate the shout out, and you've done what I haven't organized myself enough to do, namely go through the other seasons (especially season 7) and point out how ubiquitous the theme is. I really like how you've tied together the various kinds of real and metaphorical assaults -- demon possession, angelic vesseling -- with the themes about torture and hell. Contrary to what you said, this is terrifically articulate and well argued.

I totally agree on your point about Dean's time off with Lisa, and I really loved the point you made about RoboSam in 6.09 -- that's something I hadn't thought of at all and I think it's a good reading of that scene.

When I wrote the essay last season I was more ambivalent about coming out and stating that it's anything like canon fact that Dean (and later Sam) was raped in hell; but when I see it all laid out like this, it's very striking, and it becomes harder and harder to deny the possibility that this is all very intentional.

Date: 2011-12-08 01:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Oh yay! I'm glad you like it! I really liked reading your thoughts, because at the time, I really felt like I was the only one seeing things that way - and it was nice to have company. :)

I still feel like I'm not doing the topic justice at all - but I suppose with a topic like this, I'd probably always feel that way. I'm certainly interested to see where it will go in the future - because, as you say, it all seems very intentional.

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Date: 2011-12-08 03:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kitanabychoice.livejournal.com
I really enjoyed this meta. As soon as I saw it listed on spn_newsletter I thought, "this is relevant to my interests!"

I really like the points you touched on. Some of them made me think about the episodes in a different light. I knew that there have always been hints at both Sam and Dean being raped, and then often there is out-and-out sexual assault but I never thought about it outside of the vacuum of the show (what I mean, is the context surrounding the creation of the show and the society we live in and stuff).

Thinking on the different scenes between Sam and Dean and what they've encountered on their journey, it makes me even more aware of how anti-hero they really are. They are mostly victims of circumstance, over and over again. No matter where they turn, they are being taken advantage of in some way. I get the feeling that this is something Sam and Dean will never openly talk about. I think they are more than aware of each other's trauma, but speaking to each other about it would somehow make it more real, and there's other things to worry about, so why not just keep shoving it under the table, as it were?

Date: 2011-12-08 06:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thanks, I'm glad you liked the meta! I agree with you really - both about how Sam and Dean are very much anti-heroes, and also about how they will probably never openly talk about their traumas. Still, I would be endlessly fascinated if they did!

Date: 2011-12-08 08:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jackvelvet.livejournal.com
Great analysis!

I love Dean/Cas as a pairing, but I do struggle with Jimmy being in the picture. I feel like Jimmy needs to give his consent or not be around (like when Ruby assured Sam that the girl she was possessing was already). I wish the show would officially address what happened to Jimmy, and when it happened.

I don't really know what the writers are intending with their crude "jokes" most of the time. Sometimes I think they are just being...you know, sexual in order to ruffle feathers, but you make several good points that make me think this could be an intentional direction. In which case....poor boys. :(

Anyway, it's well-written essays like this that I feel the current writers need to really see. If anything, just to get a better idea of how their creations are being interpreted. Sometimes I'm not sure if they know much more than "There's a Sam/Dean base out there, and sometimes the fans get a bit delusional (like Becky)."

Date: 2011-12-08 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Anyway, it's well-written essays like this that I feel the current writers need to really see. If anything, just to get a better idea of how their creations are being interpreted. Sometimes I'm not sure if they know much more than "There's a Sam/Dean base out there, and sometimes the fans get a bit delusional (like Becky)."

I know what you mean. It's hard to tell sometimes how much thought the writers are putting into things - to know whether they realize how things are interpreted. I like to be optimistic and believe that they do - that they are well aware of what they are doing - with the "jokes" and with everything. They've stated countless times that they are aware it's the characters that drive the story, not the plot...so, to me, that indicates a level of intentional-ness.

I'm not a huge fan of the Dean/Cas pairing, but whenever I do read it, I'm always thankful when the writer states upfront that Jimmy is no longer in the picture. I also wish the show would give us a final word on Jimmy. I know they like to keep things open, in case they ever want to bring Jimmy back...but sometimes all open doors do is let in a draft.

I'm glad you liked my meta! Thanks for reading and commenting :)

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Date: 2011-12-09 01:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] runedgirl.livejournal.com
Very insightful and thought-provoking meta, thank you. I also interpreted Dean's dark humor as his need to shrug off any real examination of what happened to him in hell as well as his emotional reactions to it, a fairly common way for a man to react to sexual violence. I'm always amazed at the complexity of the themes the show tackles, and the subtlety with which they (sometimes) do it. Thanks again for the thinky thoughts.

Date: 2011-12-09 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thanks for reading my thinky thoughts!

I love all the themes in Supernatural - subtle or not. :)

Date: 2011-12-09 03:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nightfawkes.livejournal.com
Thank you very much for this incredibly articulate and timely look at the themes of male sexual victimization in Supernatural. It's certainly an issue that few television shows take on head-first.

In addition to all the excellent points you raise, do you remember Bela's moment of sexual predation towards Dean in a tux, and his uncomfortable response of "Don't objectify me" in Red Sky at Morning? Not to mention the whole side-line of Sam being subjected to the advances of a woman of age, wealth, and power at the museum. Though arguably both angles are the more light-hearted, played-for-laughs type, and though this is pre-Hell for both, the theme runs strong. In an episode which is in most other regards wholly unremarkable, I find myself impressed by the profound moments of discomfort portrayed by both in their respective roles of victimization.

Personally, I've always found it particularly telling that Supernatural, despite having two of the most genetically gifted men on the planet at their disposal, rarely makes overt use of their actors in that regard, instead dealing with male objectification on a deeper, far less glossy level. It's a sharp contrast to other shows, The Vampire Diaries being one that springs immediately to mind, where sexual aggression against and victimization of men (under the perennial vampirism metaphor) easily gets lost under the nearly episodic occurrence of their actors being half-naked (especially Ian Somerhalder, bless his heart, who constantly tweets his discomfort with it).

Instead, with a few notably story-line relevant exceptions, Sam and Dean are not only always dressed, but dressed in layers upon layers - undershirts, over-shirts, jackets, guns. Their violation is deep, not skin-deep. It's laudable story-telling that the objectification and victimization of their characters doesn't require the cheap thrill of constantly having Jared and Jensen skinning down for us. Don't get me wrong - I have eyes and a pulse, and therefore could happily watch them do nothing but stand around and read the phone book were they so inclined, and any time Jared IS shirtless, I trip over my own tongue. But that aside, I think it's really incredible that for me, in early Season 6, one of the giant red Robo!Sam flags was that Sam was shirtless with a hooker. How many shows do we know where a character's casual sexuality is such an indication of Not Right? In that regard, I think the furor over Time for a Wedding is partially misplaced - the theme of raping the Winchesters has been with us, as you so rightly pointed out, from the jump. It just hasn't ever been quite so overt. Instead, it's been a foundational wrongness, something crawling along underneath, sharp-edged facets that cut from below and make us bleed for them. Pain is one of the things this show does best.

Date: 2011-12-09 04:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Very well said. I, of course, agree completely with all your points.

I had forgotten about Red Sky at Morning. It's true - it's played for laughs and it's pre-Hell - but your mention of it brought up another idea that I didn't mention in the meta: Pre-series victimization. Now, this might be a bit off topic, but there was an interview in the early days of the show, when Jensen was responding to a question about Dean's younger years, and he mentioned how Dean would have had to make ends meet while John was away - specifically, he mentioned hustling pool and added something of the lines of "and who knows - Dean is a promiscuous guy"...which, if Jensen uses that idea to inform his character, does twist new light on his "don't objectify" me line in Red Sky, even pre-Hell. (And this isn't, of course, to suggest that professional prostitutes are victims, but rather that a young teen possibly feeling forced into it by financial need is a consenting professional.)

Anyway, that was a little off topic...

How many shows do we know where a character's casual sexuality is such an indication of Not Right?

And this is what I absolutely love about the show. Although, I too, trip over myself when Jared shows a bit of skin - I love the fact that it's not something that is done lightly, or without being specifically intended to add a level of "not right" to a scene or as a very important story-point. As you say, in other shows, it becomes so ubiquitous because it's only done in order to attract the female viewers (just as women are much more often scantily clad to attract male viewers.)

I also, on a completely different level, am thankful that the actors are not made to feel uncomfortable - like poor Ian Somerhalder is. I know from comments made at conventions, that both Jared and Jensen do not like going shirtless.

I also find it quite amusing, and also enjoyable, that Supernatural has turned us all "into Victorians" (as a fan said somewhere), because we salivate over a flash of an ankle or a forearm...or when the boys are only in ONE layer. :) Any skin showing is made all the more sexy by it's rarity.

Anyway, I seem to want to keep veering off topic - but, basically, I agree completely with everything you said!

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Date: 2011-12-09 04:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] katiki7.livejournal.com
Very interesting meta. I've of course picked up bits and pieces of this watching the show. The "you're my bitch, in every sense of the word" line was almost shocking in its bluntness, though perhaps it shouldn't have been, as there have been enough allusions building up to it. But really, it is seeing it all laid out so thoughtfully like this that makes me realize what a theme it has been running through the entire series.

And kudos to them for not shying away from it. Given the nature of demons, not just their evil appetites but the very violation of possession which is inherent to demonhood, as you pointed out, and how soul-destroying rape is, it would seem unrealistic that they would not use it against people, both to satisfy themselves and break their victims.

The Sam/Ruby section reminded me of a quote I just came across today from Sera at the time: "I referenced Monster's Ball right in the script. We were asking ourselves, "Where's the lowest place Sam can go in a state of despair?" That's why calling it a love scene strikes me as hilarious. It's kind of like self-mutilating and calling it getting dressed for the prom." It was hard for me to think in terms of rape when Sam is such a big strong man and Ruby a tiny woman, but as you pointed out, it's not necessarily about physical coercion, it can also be emotional/mental coercion and on that front Sam was in a very vulnerable and weakened state. And Ruby is a very evil, manipulative and powerful demon rather than a small woman who took full advantage of that vulnerability and weakness.

Thanks for a very interesting and thought-provoking read!

Date: 2011-12-09 05:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
That's a great quote by Sera - and it's also how I feel whenever someone talks about that scene like it was a consensual "love scene"...I was pretty enraged when after the scene aired, people were mad at Sam for sleeping with a demon...I mean, since I viewed that scene as a rape, it was basically shaming the victim. Not cool.

I think one of the major hurdles in our society when it comes to acknowledging and dealing with the rape of males is that there's this belief that 1)rape is only about physical coercion, not emotional/mental coercion, and therefore 2)women can't rape men because men are stronger. I think, much like with women, rape within relationships goes unreported by men (hell, rape from physical coercion goes unreported, so they are even less likely to admit to being emotionally coerced)...and it's within relationships that emotional/mental coercion takes place. Sam and Ruby's relationship was a begrudging friendship/professional-partnership, but it was still a relationship and the thing that gave Ruby access to Sam when he was emotionally weakened.

Given the nature of demons, not just their evil appetites but the very violation of possession which is inherent to demonhood, as you pointed out, and how soul-destroying rape is, it would seem unrealistic that they would not use it against people, both to satisfy themselves and break their victims.

This is why it didn't bug me as much as some other viewers, when Ruby/Meg were stripped before they were tortured by Alistair/Christian. To me, that made realistic sense, given the situation. Rape, in my opinion, is the very worst thing you can do to a person - it only makes sense that it would be used by demons during torture.

Date: 2011-12-10 03:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] etrix.livejournal.com
Like many of your commenters, I was aware of the theme of male harassment and assault in show, but it wasn't until you put it all together that I realized how pervasive they've made it.

Sexual abuse (actual, witnessed, or threatened) is a torture technique recognized and condemned by the UN. It is used because the abused (or the witness) is made to feel powerless and less than (human/important/real). Rape, or for TV the threat of it, is a simple, quick, and visual way to indicate that these two strong guys are facing forces so much stronger and more ruthless than they.

For those reasons, I've always believed that Dean was raped in Hell. When he turned torturer, he would have raped. I saw/heard small things that indicated the writers/actors believed it as well, but I seem to have missed a lot.

I'm not sure Lucifer physically could rape Sam's body from the inside (and their separation in the cage hasn't been documented, I don't think), but I'm sure that did not stop Lucifer from torturing and abusing Sam in other ways. There's no doubt that any taunting and insults would involve Lucifer stripping away Sam's 'masculinity' meaning his strength and independance, and forcing him into a feminized slave-object role.

I will have to reread this and think more about it, even rewatch some of the episodes. It's giving me ideas.

Thank you for sharing!

Date: 2011-12-10 07:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
I'm not sure Lucifer physically could rape Sam's body from the inside (and their separation in the cage hasn't been documented, I don't think), but I'm sure that did not stop Lucifer from torturing and abusing Sam in other ways.

I think their separation in the cage is indicated by Sam's reaction upon seeing Lucifer in 7x01/7x02 and believing that Lucifer could stage such an elaborate illusion. I believe, that once in the cage, the souls and bodies became separate - and since the inside of the cage is Lucifer's to control, it would have been very easy for him to put Sam's soul in a "holodeck" of sorts in which he could "physically" do things to him. But, even if you don't agree with that interpretation, I too agree that even without the physical act of sexual rape, Lucifer could just as easily effectively metaphorically rape Sam in the cage.

I'm glad you liked the meta and that it gave you stuff to think about. :) Again, it was really all off the top of my head, so I'm pretty sure the theme is even more pervasive than I've even laid it out...which almost makes me want to rewatch some episodes with this in mind as well.

Thanks for reading and commenting! I really appreciate the well worded thoughts. :)

Date: 2013-10-01 02:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] destielfan06.livejournal.com
this was definitely informative.
although I Respect your opinion. I do not believe Sam was Hurt by Lucifer in anyway prior to and during his stay in the cage. During S5,Lucifer was very adamant about Needing and Wanting Sam's Consent.
he was Very Patient with Sam,unlike Zachariah who used every tactic imaginable to get dean say yes.
I firmly believe that any harm that was done to Sam while in the cage was by Michael's Hand and Michael alone.
I Don't believe lucifer lied to sam during Swan Song.
I Know not everyone understands our ship and that's cool but i will always believe,that lucifer tried his best to keep his sweet boy safe from michael.

Date: 2013-10-01 04:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Hmmm... that's really interesting, and to tell you the truth, I didn't realize that there were people who shipped Sam/Lucifer who believed that Lucifer wouldn't do anything without Sam's consent. The reason the ship always squicked me was because I just assumed that it was taken for granted that any action of Lucifers was non-con.

It's certainly an interesting different point of view!

That being said, given Hallucifer's taunts, I can't bring myself to believe that Lucifer never harmed Sam - but I'm glad you can!

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your opinion. :)

Date: 2014-12-22 09:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elianna j (from livejournal.com)
Sorry, I know this is a really old post but I just discovered it and I wanted to say thanks for putting it all together like this. This is a theme I've noticed frequently on the show, but you've pointed out a lot more examples that I hadn't noticed, particularly the more subtle ones.

Also, since this post is from a few years ago, it'd be interesting to see an update covering the more recent seasons. Season 9 especially stands out in my mind, with the whole Gadreel thing. Ugh. That entire plot arc was disturbing, even after he was gone. The one episode where they discovered Sam still had some residual grace in him from Gadreel... I didn't understand at first why that bothered me, but then I realized. Ughh.

Anyway, thank you for writing this important post! I don't really want to say I *like* it, because it's gross and disturbing, but I *appreciate* it because it's important. :)

Date: 2014-12-22 03:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Thanks!

This is definitely a theme that's still around. I don't really have any plans to update the meta at the moment, but who knows! You're right though that Gadreel is another instance of it - and a particularly glaring one, especially the bit about leaving grace behind.

Date: 2014-12-23 08:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2213rosie.livejournal.com
Castiel theoretically did not have sex in his vessel while Jimmy's soul was still in it. In season 10, he tells Jimmy's now teenage daughter that her father is in heaven and that the soul died due to the amount of impact his body had taken, therefore Castiel's own soul would've taken complete control over the vessel. Since he is now mostly human, Jimmy's soul would've died when Cas was still full angel, otherwise, Castiel would've been dead too. Castiel remained a virgin until his early stages of being human when he met April. The only logical way Jimmy would've died was when Cas was fully angel and if Cas remained abstinent until he himself was human, Jimmy was gone, therefore he did not have sex with anyone while Jimmy was still resident.

Date: 2014-12-23 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hells-half-acre.livejournal.com
Yes, I know. I wrote this meta in early S7 before we had confirmation one way or the other whether Jimmy was still alive or dead. If I didn't mention that above, my apologies.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] 2213rosie.livejournal.com - Date: 2015-01-01 12:36 am (UTC) - Expand

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