Quick Reaction: 4x22 Lucifer Rising

[hells_half_acre]

OK! Last night while the finale aired, Lil' Sister and I played "Supernatural Scrabble" - where we start with the word APOCALYPSE and every word you put down has to relate to Supernatural in some way. It was great fun. Some of my favorites where "Sam and Dean have cute BUNS" and "Everywhere they go, people think they are QUEER"

Anyway, the episode finally downloaded this afternoon while I was on a conference call with work - I restrained myself from saying "YES!" into the conference call as I watched the count down to completion. So, after spending the day shopping and visiting with our older sister a little, me and Lil' Sister finally sat down to watch it.

It was a great episode!!! I was very very pleased with it. It wasn't as horrible (in a heartbreaking way) as I thought it was going to be. The thing I forgot about Supernatural was that they only ever leave ONE major question remaining at the end of a season. So what we got was a great wrap up to the problems of this season, and the introduction of the them/main villain for next season.

Most importantly, the BOYS ARE GOOD AGAIN! I know they still have to talk about everything (in a manly way), but the end scene left no doubt in my mind that they are back to being brothers, and back to being on the same page, and back to not being at each other's throats.

Also, NOBODY DIED!!! Oh...umm...except Ruby...but seeing as how she was a villain, that doesn't count. Basically, what I mean to say is: BOBBY IS STILL ALIVE! I was seriously worried about him this season. That he'd be the one to kick the bucket or something, I'm VERY pleased that he is still with us.

Now, back to Ruby. I seriously think Genevieve did a great job this season. The more I saw her, the more I realized how awesome she was at playing this more manipulative version of Ruby, and this episode just clinched it. She was great, and the fact that her death was an act performed in perfect harmony by both Winchesters was poetry. Extremely well done.

Ok, now we've talked about the demons - let's talk about the angels! I had a feeling Zachariah was a bad guy, and I was right! Man, next season is going to be intense, because they'll have both Lucifer AND Angels to contend with.

Castiel was awesome (or better said, Misha was awesome). I think they've really fleshed out Castiel wonderfully. From this perfect heavenly being into someone who is just as flawed and struggling as Dean and Sam are...the fact that he was obviously torn the past few episodes and in the end chose to try to redeem himself through helping Dean was just great. Lovely. I'd be worried about him, but I know that he is signed on for Season 5, so he obviously lives...mind you, who knows how much the archangel/whoever might mess him up. Still, methinks after following the wrong bosses once, he won't do it again. Who knows though. It's going to be interesting!

I wonder if we'll see the Prophet Chuck again? Obviously he can't be killed because of the archangel protection. I love the fact that he had "Lucifer Rising" on the screen and was ording 20 call girls...hahaha. Gotta love this show.

But on to the intriguing bits - Cas and Dean weren't supposed to drop in. Which means that Dean wasn't supposed to go to the abby and meet up with Sam. Which means that they are off course with the prophecy, and perhaps divine will.

I hope Bobby is chilling in his panic room.

Oh yeah...and that tampered with phone message from "Dean" that Sam heard - horribly heartbreaking - but I think Sam knew at the end when Dean came for him that Dean had forgiven him.

Possibly Important to Note:
Bobby told Dean that he was a better man than his father was. In MY opinion this confirms my theory that John was NOT a righteous man, and therefore was never a contender for the first seal.

Now all I have to do is wait until the DVDs come out and then I can timeline this season! Yay!

Also, I can stop avoiding my flist now for fear of being spoiled! :-)

Comments

[liliaeth]

Bobby told Dean that he was a better man than his father was. In MY opinion this confirms my theory that John was NOT a righteous man, and therefore was never a contender for the first seal.


hmm, I don't know really. See, Dean is a better man, because he cares about his family above all. But that doesn't make John any less righteous. Being righteous doesn't mean caring about your family, it means doing the 'right' thing above all.

One can be 'righteous' and still suck as a dad.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Well, Bobby didn't actually SAY he was talking about John's family skills. He just said Dean was a better man than his father.

That being said, it's not like Bobby is the ultimate authority on righteousness, nor did he even use the word righteous...I'm just grasping at canon-straws here because I like my theory that John didn't qualify for first-seal material.

[auriliawestlake.livejournal.com]

I'm totally with you on believing that John wasn't really, as you said, 'first-seal material', but I base this belief on the motivation he had for hunting to begin with. John, like Sam, was out to avenge the woman he loved; all the other hunts he did were basically 'training' for the final showdown. Though part of Dean's motivation was revenge, it wasn't all just about hunting down Azazel and he said as much back in 1.02 - 'Saving people, hunting things...' - he was in it as much (if not more) for the people he could save, the lives he could spare from becoming like his own, than he was about revenge. So, yeah. Dean was definitely a better man than his dad.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Well said! That's exactly why I don't believe John qualified. I don't mean to cast dispersions on John or anything, he did the best he could (arguably), but yeah - Dean IS a better man than his Dad. I'm just glad that Bobby finally pointed it out on the show, and that Dean actually seemed like he believed him at least enough to try giving Sam a call.

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

I think Bobby's idea of a good man was defined in terms of his human relationships. A good man = a good father/friend. Angels and demons probably define good in terms of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong (not man's law, but God's law). So I think in angel and demon terms, John totally qualified.

As to Dean being a better man as per Bobby's definition, you bet he was. John was a coward in his personal relationships. He would as soon run away as deal with something emotionally difficult. When Bobby said that to Dean, he was like, so bitter! You could tell he still harbored a lot of anger over their last encounter. I'm glad that Bobby said that to Dean. He needed to hear it and know it.

Now...before this very last episode, I actually wondered how righteous Dean really was. I was truly surprised that he would rather let Sam die than let him turn into a monster. I really thought he would have let Sam go, would even have gone down that path with him, because he loved him so much. But I have to admit that at every step along the way, Dean has chosen right over wrong, even when it hurt him to do so. Yay Dean! =D

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I was mostly just pleased that Dean seemed to believe Bobby when he said that. Dean's come along way from his hero-worship of John in the first couple seasons...for various reasons of course.

And yeah, I totally agree with you about the way Bobby was defining a good man. I think Bobby has a very strong sense of family (blood or not) and that never meshed well with John's particular priorities.

I was also surprised that Dean would let Sam die rather than turn into a monster - and I was proud of him for it. Dean does have lines that he won't cross, even when it comes to Sam, and I think that's what caused him to be the ideal candidate for the righteous man.

(not to say of course that John wasn't, just that I prefer to think he wasn't ;)

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

Interesting that Bobby has such a strong sense of family when he doesn't have one and lives in self imposed exile from the rest of society. It makes me think he is talking a load of bollocks. I mean come on. Who is he to judge John for being a coward in personal relationships when he hasn't made any effort to remarry, or meet people, or generally move on with his life? It's easy to criticize a man who is trying to raise two headstrong kids while trying to hold his shit together when you are sitting alone in a house full of old books and the only real relationship you have is with your dog! Not that I'm being anti Bobby or anything, but he's a bit pot calling the kettle black there.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

You don't need to have a family to know what you are talking about. And we all know how difficult it is to find and marry someone when you hunt demons for a living.

After his wife died, I think that much like John, Bobby made the decision to devote his life to hunting. The difference is that Bobby didn't have any children. I think if he did, we would have seen the difference between Bobby's and John's hunter-parenting strategies.

Just because he didn't remarry doesn't make him a coward in his interpersonal relationships. Maybe you could call it cowardice to decide not to drag someone into demon hunting, but you can also say that is was simply a conscious decision, and that there are more personal relationships than the spousal relationship to not be a coward about. You don't necessarily have to remarry to prove anything. Heck, you don't even have to marry a first time to prove anything.

Maybe it's BECAUSE Bobby never got a chance to have a family of his own that he has such a strong sense of family - he is less likely to take what family he does have for granted (not saying that John did - I'm just talking in general here).

Also, sometimes when you don't have something of your own that other people do, it gives you this weird continuous outsider perspective on the thing...you acquire knowledge through witnessing other people's mistakes rather than your own, and you are more likely to pick up on things that other people miss because you are not involved (for instance John may not have noticed that Sam was planning to leave for school until the fight about it - but I bet if Bobby was around he would have...or in most cases people don't realize their spouse is cheating/leaving/a complete bastard, but the outsider can see it.)

So, I think Bobby DOES know what he's talking about. It's true he can't prove whether or not he'd avoid John's mistakes if it were him, but he's not claiming that he would.

Anyway...my main point is that you can criticize a man raising two headstrong kids even if the only relationship you have is with your dog...because you have the time and the outsider perspective to see what that man is doing wrong - sure, you can also understand WHY he is doing it wrong, and cut him a little slack for it (which I'm sure Bobby did, up until the shot-gun incident) - but that doesn't mean that the man isn't still wrong.

(I don't have a Bobby icon! Horrors! To compensate: Dean reading books - books I'm sure he got from Bobby.)

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

Well, I assume Bobby's had family in the past, like he didn't grow up an orphan or something, so I'm sure he did have some frame of reference for how a family should be. But the fact is that he doesn't have kids himself, and being a parent is a whole nother ball of wax. I'm just saying that it's easy for him to criticize John's parenting, but we just don't know that he would have been any better a parent. Maybe he doesn't have John's explosive temperament, but he has faults too, like being a bit of a curmudgeon!

I definitely agree with you there about his having that third party perspective on the situation, and also him having more appreciation for the kids than John, who may take them for granted. Not that John takes having kids for granted per se, since he does spend every waking moment worrying about them and trying to protect them. But perhaps in terms of appreciation for the relationship that he has with them, or that he could have with them if he wasn't such a stubborn bastard.

I suppose I will grudgingly have to agree with you though, because I did just think of a scenario in which I would judge someone a bad parent, despite the fact that I'm not a parent, and I know that I would be correct. And those instances would be if the parent did things that were clearly harmful to the child. Whether they did them purposefully or not would be inconsequential, because the end result would be a damaged kid, which equals a bad parent.

I don't either! *horror* Will have to find one...

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

<---closest I could come to a Bobby icon for the time being :P

Yeah, I'm not saying Bobby would be great as a parent either. He'd just be different than John, and that's what matters to Bobby. But it's exactly as you describe - whether you have personal experience with having kids or not, there are circumstances when you feel you can criticize someone's parenting skills.

I think given the level of affection Bobby as for Dean - it's pretty easy for him to find fault with John for how damaged Dean is...whether or not that is completely justified is besides the point.

I've been reading metas all day :P

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

Haha, nice icon! =D

Oh man, metas all day! Your head must be ready to explode!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

It is! I need psychological help!

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

Fandom is all the support you need!

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

Ruby is dead. \o/

Sam and Dean, together again. \o/

Lucifer is on the loose and there's gonna be some serious shit going down next season. \o/

Oh Show, I love you so.

(now to comment on John, which you knew I would)
I once read this novel where some angels or whatever were really on this guy about being the righteous man that they wanted for whatever plan they had. And he kept saying to them that he wasn't who they were looking for, that he'd made a lot of mistakes, been faced with a lot of really awful stuff, and had to make some really painful choices. Then the angel told him that a righteous man is not the same as an innocent man. A righteous man is a man who has been tested, and has chosen right over wrong, despite the cost to himself or those he loved.

I think this describes John pretty accurately. He was probably not a good father, or a good friend, or even necessarily a good man. But he was a righteous man in that he always chose to do the right thing, even if that meant sacrificing everything, including his family, to the cause.

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

Also I think you have to consider the kind of souls that go to hell. John was not a murderer or a rapist or whatever else. He was more or less a good guy. He was only in hell because he sacrificed himself to save his son. Hence, he's a righteous man in hell.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Bah!...must argue...yet, reasoning sound...

Yeah, you have a point *pouts*. John probably WAS righteous, or at least more righteous than most souls in hell.

I'd also like to point out though that John WAS off the rack in AHBL2, because he was able to climb out of hell! So...yeah, point for me?

This is really pointless to argue about though. There's no way to prove it one way or the other.

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

I like to imagine that at the moment the gate opened, all the demonds fled the scene and went to fight their way out of the pit. I imagine that left John to his own devices. And you know, the bonds in hell are probably metaphysical ones, possibly having to be maintained by a demon, i.e. you're locked in here because X demon has locked you there by will. It's not a physical cage with bars, etc. You know what I'm saying? And when that demon loses focus because it's doing something else, maybe it released John, allowing him to join the mass exodus.

It may be pointless but it's also fun. =D *highfives*

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I was thinking about it last night before I fell asleep...and the more I thought about it, the more it occurred to me that righteous or not, John wasn't as likely to break as Dean was. John had lived a much longer and more cruel (to him, not him being cruel) life - he had served in Vietnam and experienced and survived personal loss/pain as an adult that Dean had experienced as a child. Furthermore, John didn't have the amount of self-destructive psychological problems that Dean had (he had psychological problems, but not as openly self destructive).

And yeah...it occurs to me now that the bonds in hell probably are demon-mind-controlled.

Damn you! You are causing me to switch sides in this pointless debate! :-P

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

It's true, life had made John one tough bastard. He was both outwardly and inwardly destructive, and I think the balance of the two is what kept him going all those years. Someone like Gordon was completely outwardly destructive, taking his rage out on the monsters and anyone in his path, and in the end he was no better than the monsters he was hunting. But Dean is completely self destructive, and that's bad too. I think Dean's going to have to have some serious personality overhaul next season if he expects to make it through to the final fight. I really hope Sam and Castiel will be there for him!!

LOL, YAY! =D

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

You are correct! That's exactly what occurred to me...though I didn't think of the Gordon-contrast - cool stuff.

Poor Dean. I think BOTH Sam and Dean are going to have to have some serious personality overhauls next season. They've both learned an awful lot about themselves this past season and very little of it is good. Hopefully they will be there for each other...and Castiel, who we last left battling an arch-angel, and given Castiel's current fighting stats...well, if he wasn't signed on for next season already, I'd be even more worried about him.

[mizzykitty.livejournal.com]

omg your icon. *wipes drool off the screen*

That's true, they've both reached deep down and not liked what they found down there. I'm so glad that they're back together again, but it's going to be awhile before they work past all that stuff, if they ever do!

ROFL! Castiel, angel of Thursdays and car alarms. What will he do?? Wow...I feel that needs to be an icon...*giggles*

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

thought you might like my new icon ;)

ROFL - that totally needs to be an icon. Gotta love Castiel - makes such a great entrance, but never has much to follow it up with!

I'm looking forward to the boys working out their issues - working out issues is much more fun to watch than the slow destruction of a relationship, in my humble opinion.