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hells_half_acreOk, not that I actually want to have a discussion about this - but, I've been thinking:
Why is the prevalence of "bitch" and "whore" insults treated differently from the number of insults of "son of a bitch", "bastard", etc ?
Why is it that you can say bitch on TV, but you can't say asshole or motherfucker? Because, I'd argue that the ban on the more scandalous insults for males is part of the reason it seems that Supernatural uses female insults more often.
Why is everyone taking issue with the line "I was going to kill her - of course, I'd have given you an hour with her first"? From what I saw, it'd be consensual...well, the sex part, not the killing.
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liliaeth brought up the excellent point that Supernatural treats it's female villains the same way it treats it's male villains. If Dean would punch a male demon, he'll punch a female demon...if Dean would insult a male enemy, he'd insult a female enemy...so, is it just that for some reason "bitch" and "whore" are considered worse insults than anything you can say on TV about guys?
I mean, "whore" I can sort of understand, as it's also a commentary on whether women are allowed to have sex or not...and if they are, how much...but, you could take it's broader meaning, which is just "a woman of loose morals" and yeah, that pretty much fits demons (and the Whore of Babylon) pretty damn well.
I've talked about the other accusations of sexism before, so I won't get into them here. But, I was just curious about the actual LANGUAGE...because it seems to be something that offended people's delicate sensibilities this past episode...and I'm just wondering why that is. Are we not allowed to insult females at all, or are we just not allowed to insult them using the classic female-centric insults? Are the censors themselves inherently sexist because they allow the worst of the female-insults, but only the mild male-insults? What's the worst male-insult you can use on TV? If Dean started calling men bitches and whores, would we still call him sexist? Maybe that's what Sera has to do to get around this problem.
As you all know, I'm more concerned with equality of pay and rights when it comes to issues of sexism...and I'm less concerned about insults. I did take issue with being called a whore once, but that was more because it was a friend who was in a couple calling me that...and quite frankly, after being in a couple for 5 years while I had been single, sure, I had had a few more sexual partners, but they had had 100x more actual sex. So, I just thought it was an extremely inaccurate statement.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue for or against the existence of sexism on the show....I don't really care either way. I'm just interested in the actual language here - why it's the way it is, and whether the problem lies in the writing of the show, the rules of the censors, or the way we've been conditioned to interpret the words.
Personally, like I told someone in the comments of my reaction post - I actually find that the references to rape, and the insults, and basically everything that offended everyone, actually gives the show a sense of realism...because, like it or not, we live in a world where horrible things happen and people get insulted by blue-collar thugs who were raised in a car with a small armory and no mother....
And yes, I know I'm opening a can of worms...it's why I'll probably not actually respond to any comments left. I don't actually want to get into a debate, I'm just interested to hear your thoughts - whether or not they coincide with my own.
ETA: I'm unlocking a flocked post that I put up last night - because there's some very interesting discussion there about misogyny and sexism in Supernatural.
Why is the prevalence of "bitch" and "whore" insults treated differently from the number of insults of "son of a bitch", "bastard", etc ?
Why is it that you can say bitch on TV, but you can't say asshole or motherfucker? Because, I'd argue that the ban on the more scandalous insults for males is part of the reason it seems that Supernatural uses female insults more often.
Why is everyone taking issue with the line "I was going to kill her - of course, I'd have given you an hour with her first"? From what I saw, it'd be consensual...well, the sex part, not the killing.
liliaeth brought up the excellent point that Supernatural treats it's female villains the same way it treats it's male villains. If Dean would punch a male demon, he'll punch a female demon...if Dean would insult a male enemy, he'd insult a female enemy...so, is it just that for some reason "bitch" and "whore" are considered worse insults than anything you can say on TV about guys?I mean, "whore" I can sort of understand, as it's also a commentary on whether women are allowed to have sex or not...and if they are, how much...but, you could take it's broader meaning, which is just "a woman of loose morals" and yeah, that pretty much fits demons (and the Whore of Babylon) pretty damn well.
I've talked about the other accusations of sexism before, so I won't get into them here. But, I was just curious about the actual LANGUAGE...because it seems to be something that offended people's delicate sensibilities this past episode...and I'm just wondering why that is. Are we not allowed to insult females at all, or are we just not allowed to insult them using the classic female-centric insults? Are the censors themselves inherently sexist because they allow the worst of the female-insults, but only the mild male-insults? What's the worst male-insult you can use on TV? If Dean started calling men bitches and whores, would we still call him sexist? Maybe that's what Sera has to do to get around this problem.
As you all know, I'm more concerned with equality of pay and rights when it comes to issues of sexism...and I'm less concerned about insults. I did take issue with being called a whore once, but that was more because it was a friend who was in a couple calling me that...and quite frankly, after being in a couple for 5 years while I had been single, sure, I had had a few more sexual partners, but they had had 100x more actual sex. So, I just thought it was an extremely inaccurate statement.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue for or against the existence of sexism on the show....I don't really care either way. I'm just interested in the actual language here - why it's the way it is, and whether the problem lies in the writing of the show, the rules of the censors, or the way we've been conditioned to interpret the words.
Personally, like I told someone in the comments of my reaction post - I actually find that the references to rape, and the insults, and basically everything that offended everyone, actually gives the show a sense of realism...because, like it or not, we live in a world where horrible things happen and people get insulted by blue-collar thugs who were raised in a car with a small armory and no mother....
And yes, I know I'm opening a can of worms...it's why I'll probably not actually respond to any comments left. I don't actually want to get into a debate, I'm just interested to hear your thoughts - whether or not they coincide with my own.
ETA: I'm unlocking a flocked post that I put up last night - because there's some very interesting discussion there about misogyny and sexism in Supernatural.
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Date: 2010-12-11 06:30 pm (UTC)I forgot, for example, to say that apart from my arguments, which weren't really arguments FOR anything, just statements of what my dad said, I DIDN'T LIKE THESE SCENES in the show.
I thought - like you - that it was too much, not to mention utterly unnecessary for the plot. It was disgusting and served NO purpose that I could see, should in fact, have been left out, or changed to "normal" torture.
If there'd been any reason for this scene, maybe. But there wasn't, it was, as you pointed out, just plain torture-porn. And I can say that it was wrong without problems, BECAUSE I love that show, not despite me loving it.
As, btw, should have been the scene with Cas watching porn.
Why would he? What for? Why did he kiss Meg? Is there some purpose behind it that we just don't know yet, or was it to make us laugh, haha.
Anyway, I rambled a bit when I posted that. It wasn't as thought-out as it should have been, especially since I really DO know about the degradation of nakedness. Since my dad is a guy, I thought his view was interesting - we don't get a lot of man-thoughts here ;-)
He didn't think long about it, and he also claimed that nakedness to for the Iraqi-prisoners was worse than it't have been for western prisoners. Not sure about that, but when I look at some individuals running around here, utterly shameless in their half-nakedness, I wonder if it's true on some level.
You're right, it's a difference between CHOOSING to be naked and being FORCED to be naked. No matter what gender (there is a huge amount of utterly shameless women as well).
Or choosing who has access and who doesn't.
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Date: 2010-12-11 07:29 pm (UTC)Why would he? What for? Why did he kiss Meg? Is there some purpose behind it that we just don't know yet, or was it to make us laugh, haha.
I'm just going to address this question...
Yes, they did it for a laugh...but I also think they did it to make Cas more of your stereotypical soldier-on-leave. They pulled him out midbattle, and the truth is (as we find out at the end of the episode) he doesn't WANT to go back. Since Castiel really isn't that sexually experience, I think watching the porn and kissing Meg back, were basically his version of "fuck it, I'll probably die soon, I might as well have some fun"
But, you know, I could just be reading way too much into a cheap joke :P
Oh, and yeah, there is a difference between how different cultures view and feel about nakedness. Europe, I think, is the most comfortable with it - or I should say, the most comfortable with it of the places I've been and the people I've met - I don't know any Africans or South Americans, so I don't know what their feelings on the subject are. But, when I lived in Germany, my friends and I always joked that you could always tell the Canadians/Americans in the change room, because they were the ones trying to get undressed/dressed without anyone seeing anything. :P
I've also had some middle-eastern friends (granted, only females) and yeah...I think forcing them to be naked in front of men would be way worse than forcing *me* to.
But as you say, it all comes down to being forced to be naked and choosing to be naked. You could argue that a demon probably doesn't care about the nakedness of it's vessel, because there's a disconnect there...but, at the same time, you have to consider that there is a real person trapped inside that vessel with that demon, and she probably cares a great deal.