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hells_half_acreOk, not that I actually want to have a discussion about this - but, I've been thinking:
Why is the prevalence of "bitch" and "whore" insults treated differently from the number of insults of "son of a bitch", "bastard", etc ?
Why is it that you can say bitch on TV, but you can't say asshole or motherfucker? Because, I'd argue that the ban on the more scandalous insults for males is part of the reason it seems that Supernatural uses female insults more often.
Why is everyone taking issue with the line "I was going to kill her - of course, I'd have given you an hour with her first"? From what I saw, it'd be consensual...well, the sex part, not the killing.
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liliaeth brought up the excellent point that Supernatural treats it's female villains the same way it treats it's male villains. If Dean would punch a male demon, he'll punch a female demon...if Dean would insult a male enemy, he'd insult a female enemy...so, is it just that for some reason "bitch" and "whore" are considered worse insults than anything you can say on TV about guys?
I mean, "whore" I can sort of understand, as it's also a commentary on whether women are allowed to have sex or not...and if they are, how much...but, you could take it's broader meaning, which is just "a woman of loose morals" and yeah, that pretty much fits demons (and the Whore of Babylon) pretty damn well.
I've talked about the other accusations of sexism before, so I won't get into them here. But, I was just curious about the actual LANGUAGE...because it seems to be something that offended people's delicate sensibilities this past episode...and I'm just wondering why that is. Are we not allowed to insult females at all, or are we just not allowed to insult them using the classic female-centric insults? Are the censors themselves inherently sexist because they allow the worst of the female-insults, but only the mild male-insults? What's the worst male-insult you can use on TV? If Dean started calling men bitches and whores, would we still call him sexist? Maybe that's what Sera has to do to get around this problem.
As you all know, I'm more concerned with equality of pay and rights when it comes to issues of sexism...and I'm less concerned about insults. I did take issue with being called a whore once, but that was more because it was a friend who was in a couple calling me that...and quite frankly, after being in a couple for 5 years while I had been single, sure, I had had a few more sexual partners, but they had had 100x more actual sex. So, I just thought it was an extremely inaccurate statement.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue for or against the existence of sexism on the show....I don't really care either way. I'm just interested in the actual language here - why it's the way it is, and whether the problem lies in the writing of the show, the rules of the censors, or the way we've been conditioned to interpret the words.
Personally, like I told someone in the comments of my reaction post - I actually find that the references to rape, and the insults, and basically everything that offended everyone, actually gives the show a sense of realism...because, like it or not, we live in a world where horrible things happen and people get insulted by blue-collar thugs who were raised in a car with a small armory and no mother....
And yes, I know I'm opening a can of worms...it's why I'll probably not actually respond to any comments left. I don't actually want to get into a debate, I'm just interested to hear your thoughts - whether or not they coincide with my own.
ETA: I'm unlocking a flocked post that I put up last night - because there's some very interesting discussion there about misogyny and sexism in Supernatural.
Why is the prevalence of "bitch" and "whore" insults treated differently from the number of insults of "son of a bitch", "bastard", etc ?
Why is it that you can say bitch on TV, but you can't say asshole or motherfucker? Because, I'd argue that the ban on the more scandalous insults for males is part of the reason it seems that Supernatural uses female insults more often.
Why is everyone taking issue with the line "I was going to kill her - of course, I'd have given you an hour with her first"? From what I saw, it'd be consensual...well, the sex part, not the killing.
liliaeth brought up the excellent point that Supernatural treats it's female villains the same way it treats it's male villains. If Dean would punch a male demon, he'll punch a female demon...if Dean would insult a male enemy, he'd insult a female enemy...so, is it just that for some reason "bitch" and "whore" are considered worse insults than anything you can say on TV about guys?I mean, "whore" I can sort of understand, as it's also a commentary on whether women are allowed to have sex or not...and if they are, how much...but, you could take it's broader meaning, which is just "a woman of loose morals" and yeah, that pretty much fits demons (and the Whore of Babylon) pretty damn well.
I've talked about the other accusations of sexism before, so I won't get into them here. But, I was just curious about the actual LANGUAGE...because it seems to be something that offended people's delicate sensibilities this past episode...and I'm just wondering why that is. Are we not allowed to insult females at all, or are we just not allowed to insult them using the classic female-centric insults? Are the censors themselves inherently sexist because they allow the worst of the female-insults, but only the mild male-insults? What's the worst male-insult you can use on TV? If Dean started calling men bitches and whores, would we still call him sexist? Maybe that's what Sera has to do to get around this problem.
As you all know, I'm more concerned with equality of pay and rights when it comes to issues of sexism...and I'm less concerned about insults. I did take issue with being called a whore once, but that was more because it was a friend who was in a couple calling me that...and quite frankly, after being in a couple for 5 years while I had been single, sure, I had had a few more sexual partners, but they had had 100x more actual sex. So, I just thought it was an extremely inaccurate statement.
Anyway, I'm not going to argue for or against the existence of sexism on the show....I don't really care either way. I'm just interested in the actual language here - why it's the way it is, and whether the problem lies in the writing of the show, the rules of the censors, or the way we've been conditioned to interpret the words.
Personally, like I told someone in the comments of my reaction post - I actually find that the references to rape, and the insults, and basically everything that offended everyone, actually gives the show a sense of realism...because, like it or not, we live in a world where horrible things happen and people get insulted by blue-collar thugs who were raised in a car with a small armory and no mother....
And yes, I know I'm opening a can of worms...it's why I'll probably not actually respond to any comments left. I don't actually want to get into a debate, I'm just interested to hear your thoughts - whether or not they coincide with my own.
ETA: I'm unlocking a flocked post that I put up last night - because there's some very interesting discussion there about misogyny and sexism in Supernatural.
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no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 05:15 pm (UTC)I applied the problem solely on the amount of swearing and never really considered the fact you pointed out, that it's usually female anatomy that's used as a swear-word, no matter who it's applied on.
That is extremely sad, now that I realize it :-(
I have to go through my swear-vocabulary and check if this rule is applicable to my language too, because right now I think most female-based swear-words are borrowed from English. I need to count.
Fun-things to do in the evening \o/ (I'm not being ironic, I really consider this fun)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 05:21 pm (UTC)Well, besides the obvious direct translations of English swears.
Anyway...yeah, it is rather sad that most swear words in English are female or gay based. "Bitch/Cocksucker" etc...I'd argue that "motherfucker" isn't female based - it's incest based :P
In French-Canada all swear words are religious based. I like that better. It sounds funny when you directly translate it. "Tabernacle!" "Challis!"
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 06:15 pm (UTC)Though I suspect most languages have them- it's just that English (American especially) has over time, developed a smaller vocabulary of swear words and just focused on the crudest.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 07:12 pm (UTC)I came up with one link to a list of 2.500 words, but most of these I never heard in use, though they certainly are insulting. Well, some are, some would need to have a context, because just written, they aren't.
Anyway.
Of course we have swearing that's based on female anatomy. >There is the very, very demeaning word, which is actually worse than "cunt", though it means the same. Whore and the likes is used, but I don't think very often anymore, or maybe I just don't live in circles where it is? Mostly, it's used when someone is referring to his girlfriend cheating. Which I'd say is a valid use ;-)
I know thought, that in certain circles "whore" is a word used for ANY girl, no matter her morals, and that's really a very sad thing.
But nonetheless, I mostly have to agree with hells-half-acre that most swearing is based in animals, like "pig", "monkey-ass" and things like it. Also, a passion for "ass" is notable - you can put any fun-thing behind it (ass-face, ass-hole...) and any other kind of fecal words. I personally think they are gender-free.
There is, of course, the anti-gay-vocabulary, most often used by adolescent boys and (sadly, I have to say) persons with migration-backgrounds.
So I won't say we don't have anti-female swearing, but I'm daring to say that our insults are equal-gender-insults.
Of course, we have "son of a bitch" (or more accurately, son of a whore) and bastard.
I'm not saying "our insults are better" or anything. I think they are a bit less-female-anatomy-is-bad, because even in the list of 2.500 insults, I found more disgusting fecal-words than anything female-related.
They certainly are embarrassingly juvenile.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 07:32 pm (UTC)Is it weird that I'm happy that I was right? Not due to any feminist reasons, but simply because at least I still retain SOME knowledge of the German language :P
Though, I had forgotten the unending varieties of "ass" combination swear words.
Animals and butts! Haha, definitely sounds like 12 year-olds.
I guess the problem with English is that uneducated horny 16 year-old straight males came up with our swear words.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 07:48 pm (UTC)If we put it that way, your swear-words are more adult than ours :-D
Also, it means we didn't evolve much from the sand-box. It explains SO much...
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 07:51 pm (UTC)(totally joking...well, joking about the condescension. I do in fact love you!)