Quick Reaction: 6x03 The Third Man
Oct. 8th, 2010 11:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
hells_half_acreHey folks...I'm home from my friend's place. This time, I made a Supernatural playlist to listen to while I walked there and back. It's the Supernatural soundtrack interspersed with classic rock songs. Let me just say, there's nothing quite like walking home in the dark while listening to the Supernatural soundtrack. Haha
Anyway, on with the episode....
It's a test of my memory on wine tonight...let's see...
We begin with a GROSS opener. Super gross!! I had to watch through my hand.
Then we get Dean in bed...shirtless. Not to objectify him or anything, but...umm...that was a nice treat. Also, dude, if that's how Lisa wakes Dean up, I think *I* want to marry her. Sadly, Dean's not actually in bed with Lisa, he's on River Road. I was just there last weekend, as fate would have it...small world. (There's a sunken boat there that's good fodder for my sister's art).
Sam's in Pennsylvania. When Dean gets there, he's on the phone with Ben, because Ben broke something and isn't telling his mum...ah parenting. Sam is also tickled by this. Sam's sort of odd - I mean, he wanted Dean to have a normal life, but now he seems confused that Dean is actually parenting and stuff. But, Sam is odd for a lot of reasons. Oh hey, I'm forgetting something....
What the heck was up with Sam and that woman? Oh...also...um...shirtless Jared was VERY nice...not to objectify him of course, but I am totally objectifying him....and he has the tattoo, CLEARLY. So, yay body-continuity! They may not do it with bullet wounds, but they'll at least always keep their tattoos. I've digressed though - Sammy never paid for sex before...so what are your theories? New Sammy, new stance on prostitution? My friend thought maybe he was paying her for something else, and we were only meant to assume it was sex...like demon-blood or something. I don't think Sam's on that train again though...so, I can only assume it was actual sex...but I'm sure there are other's with thoughts on this.
Anyway, back to where I was...I like Dean's comment about Sam's "plastic car". It's my main beef with modern American cars actually - too much plastic. I did like Sam's comeback about Dean's milage though...the truth hurts.
Oh yeah, boil-guy TOTALLY GROSS! UGH!
So, they go check out the dudes partner and it's TOTALLY GROSS! Also, WHY THE HECK WOULD YOU KEEP THE LOCUSTS?! BRAIN LOCUSTS!!?!?! GROSS!!! (sorry, I'm having too much fun yelling "gross"...in my head, I'm not actually talking out loud, that would be crazy).
Then we get to the action of the episode! CAS IS BACK! I was just as mad at Sam though, that Dean gets special treatment...and I had to laugh at the obvious fanservice line of "Dean and I share a special bond....I wasn't going to say anything" - hahaha.
Dean's little speech about how Sam THREW HIMSELF INTO HELL for them, and how Cas should have come when Sam called though really brought the point home that Castiel was a pretty big ass for not coming, even if he didn't know. However long Sam was in hell for, it was obviously long enough for Cas to forget how to be good friend.
I loved Cas' comments though - "I've spent the past year as a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent". Awesome, totally answers my question about what angels look like while they're traveling. Also, his use of the quotey fingers while yelling about how his "people skills" are a bit "rusty", were awesome. Also, his continued annoyance when Dean uses references that he doesn't know.
So, it's the Staff of Moses...that's cool. Misha's analogy at ComicCon of heaven being like post-Soviet Russia is REALLY apt. Again, I have to say that I loved Cas' line of "I think we can rule out Moses as a suspect" - good to know! I think you might offend a few billion people if he WAS responsible.
Nope, the real culprit is an adorable little black kid, who just wanted to avenge his brother, and did so by SELLING HIS SOUL TO AN ANGEL?! Holy crow...Heaven is the new Hell. Angels are the new demons. Black is white. Up is down. Everything we know is wrong. So, naturally, Castiel kidnaps the kid and decides he should REACH INSIDE HIM and FEEL HIS SOUL.
I'm with Dean on that one...I mean, umm...as most of you know, I tend to think of possession as a metaphor for sexual assault...so, although, Dean equated this with torture....I was even more squicked by it. Anyway, unsurprisingly to us (because Sam is a cylon), but surprisingly to Dean, Sam does not protest. And Cas gets the information. It's Balthazar. (who was one of the wisemen, according to Wikipedia...which might explain why Castiel needed Myrrh).
Oh, but first Mr. Smith attacks and him and Castiel FALL OUT A WINDOW ONTO SAM'S CAR! I can see what Jensen was saying about the scripts being a bit "bigger" under Sera. But Cas is fine, because he's an angel.
Anyway, I love the scene of Castiel figuring out where Balthazar is...because he's all flitting all over the place, and Dean and Sam are like "hold on, what? Hey that's our stuff? Wait, the kid? What the?" And poor Dean is the only compassionate member left on Team Free Will.
We get to Balthazar's house and Dean makes another cultural reference that Castiel doesn't really get. And it's kind of funny that Castiel is somewhat bonded to this human that he can barely understand half the time. Anywho, Balthazar has turned into a weapon's dealer/crossroads-angel...and Castiel is not impressed. Apparently Castiel and Balthazar go way back and were best-buddies at one point or another....that aside, Balthazar is not going to help a brother out. He's in it for himself...saying that he's leading off Castiel's example of exerting free will, but with only his own interests at heart. So, yeah...way to miss the point that Castiel was setting a more COMPASSIONATE example, not a "do what you want and create chaos" example. Poor Cas.
Raphael shows up and there's another angelic fist-fight. I will have to assume that Castiel gained the power of Explosion-Resistance when he was brought back the last time, because although Raphael still kicks Castiel's ass...Castiel's been exploded instantaneously by two arch-angels before...
Then Raphael gets turned to salt, and that's the end of Demore Barnes' Supernatural run...which sucks, really, because I quite liked his presence.
Then Dean traps Balthazar and gets him to give the kid's soul back. That's nice of Dean...also nice of Castiel to let him,, before he ultimately let's Balthazar go, because heck, that's diplomacy for you. And Dean complains, but Cas doesn't stick around...sigh...I miss friendly Castiel a little, as much as I like the flitting around.
Ok...now Sam's car is destroyed, so they're back to cruising around in the Impala...order is NEARLY returned to the universe. Except Sammy's all weird. It's almost like the only emotion he's letting himself feel is "slight amusement" and "annoyance". Dean tries to get him to talk about Hell, assuming (like I have) that Hell completely messed up his personality...but Sam rightly points out that Dean only knows what Hell was like FOR HIM, that Hell messed up DEAN, but that Sam is NOT DEAN. Point for Sam - we all deal with trauma differently...that being said, is Sam just in denial? Is this actually Sam? What the heck is going on?
So...hopefully I didn't miss anything too important...
A brief note about "How could Cas find the Winchester's when they have the rib carvings?" - I think it's because Dean prayed for him. And that's the only reason...of course, the plot hole this opens up is that in Point of No Return when Dean wanted to give himself to Zachariah, he could have just prayed for him the whole time...so, who knows...maybe he didn't realize this at the time? Anyway, we'll see if it happens again.
Oh, another brief note: Dean's angel banishing sigil burned when he used it. So, sadly, the angel-sigil-burning-effect in 5x13 was not just because it was Sam's blood. Pity. I was so hoping that would be a thing...I guess I'm a little disappointed that there's not more openly apparently consequences for Sam having demon-blood in him. It must have just been a caveat to being Lucifer's true vessel or something...some rule somewhere that the True Vessel needs to have been infected with demon blood at 6 months of age or something. Ah plot holes...how I love to fill you with LOVE.
ETA: THINGS I FORGOT BUT HAVE NOW REMEMBERED:
A)The "Traditionalist Angels" wanting to restart the apocalypse and finish it properly...SO NOT COOL. What a total kick in the face to Sam. If he could feel at the moment, he'd be devastated.
B)Wendigo mask...nice callback to S1, to point out just how much things have changed..
Ok, that was fun.
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Date: 2010-10-09 07:15 am (UTC)Yeah, they left the sigil rib carvings unanswered...sorta. Cas said he didn't appear because Dean prayed for him, but because there was trouble afoot. Great timing then. Pfffft. Not sure I buy that really. Maybe he could indeed hear Dean, but could "see" where Sam was (assuming that the sigils are gone from Sam due to dying and being in the cage and being resurrected) and went to where he was assuming that's where Dean was at. That's my working theory for now 'cause I highly doubt the show is going to revisit the idea again. *le sigh*
Anyway, I enjoyed reading this and I don't normally read anyone's review until I do my own. I broke my rule for you 'cause I was curious about what you thought. *g*
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Date: 2010-10-09 07:21 am (UTC)I disagree with you about the rib-carvings though. I think they both still have them (after all, they are always resurrected with their skin tattoos, why not their rib-ones?), and that Cas DID come because Dean called (and in doing so revealed his location)...but as you said, it was because trouble was afoot. So, the way I imagine it is Cas is like "Hm, trouble is afoot...oh Dean's calling me, where is he? Ah, he's located where the trouble is, how convenient, he can help me out..."
But yeah, I don't think it's something they're going to address. So, we can be theorizing until the cow's come home. :-P
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Date: 2010-10-09 07:25 am (UTC)I was so thrilled when I saw Dean and the Impala parked there at the River Road pull-off! *squee* Mom was like, "Was that it?" and I'm all, "Yeah, River Road!" Heehee! So happy I found that final scene location too. Those things bug me until I figure them out.
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Date: 2010-10-09 07:33 am (UTC)Whenever they have a wide scenery shot, I'm always trying to figure out where they are! Haha... glad I'm not the only one ;)
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Date: 2010-10-09 07:37 am (UTC)Hee! I'm glad someone else understands my
crazinessobsession. :PHey! That scene in your icon! Mom & I went there on our last day in Van. We found that spot, even ate a little snack in the golf place right near there. I'll be posting my location photos soon from last year and this year. :)
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Date: 2010-10-09 07:45 am (UTC)We didn't go to Bobby's junkyard. We went to the one right next to the studios. Right on the corner of Marshland Ave. It WAS hard to get photos because of the high fencing, but luckily they had their cars stacked up pretty high, so she was able to get some.
We also went back to Fort Langley and did some recreations...it was a lot of fun. :)
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Date: 2010-10-09 01:49 pm (UTC)That part about the beginning being gross? So true, I think this one will fall among the top 3 most disgusting moments in the history of the all show..
The bullet and other scars - haven't you yet gotten used to the fact that there is no continuity for those things even in most movies (which are made during a shorter period of time), and almost every show? well except if the scar/injury/bullet hole is not playing a prominent role? :)
Hey, can I ask you one question? That part Castiel said about being a "celestial intent" - it makes no sense for me [Yes I even checked more than one dictionary including english - english ones]. He was a wavelength of heavenly meaning? Heavenly purpose? Or there is some expression I am totally missing?
About that part how hell messed up Sam and Dean. Somehow I have always felt that for Dean one of the biggest problems was the fact that he himself took the knife and started cutting, and that was the biggest problem for him – the one who tries to spare pain for others, now having to torture them. But Sam – I doubt that he was in the same position as Dean, and that he went through the same things.. So I think that there is not even a point of them dealing with the trauma differentially. They just had 2 completely different experiences.
Other angels wanting a proper apocalypse – so, is the show now going in the direction of the yearly [? Every year?] apocalypses in May, like Buffy and other shows dealing with similar problems? I really hope that this wont turn out to be a major thing in their list of problems.
Heaven is the new Hell. Angels are the new demons.
And that is one scary thought I had as well.
Black is white. Up is down.
And this part of that idea made me think back of my philosophy lessons in school. We once had a discussion about these polar opposites, which by definitions can't be the same thing. And then we had theories how black actually could become white (and other way around). But there was this one thing that we couldn't refute - circle and square. By the most primitive definitions – two different things. And then I went to university, and in Calculus professor proved that there are times when those two – can look and be the same thing [sometimes a dot, sometimes a line]. That I think is still the most shocking thing I have learned.
So the point of all this rambling was – strangely it really all depends on the base of your knowledge and viewpoint. And how normal it all is that the Heaven is the new Hell and Angels are the Demons. They have played their part, and now they have switched. Or the dot now has decided to define itself in a new way :)
Hmm.. I have a feeling that I shouldn’t use the livejournals and entries of other people to define my own thoughts, but leave that to my own space or just the proper places.. Sorry for using your space :)
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Date: 2010-10-09 03:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 01:30 pm (UTC)I think I will go with that part that it really was meant to emphasize the fact that he didn't have a body.
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Date: 2010-10-09 08:08 pm (UTC)And yes, I AM used to bullet wounds and stab wounds magically disappearing...which is why it's nice that they have SOME sort of body-continuity, even if it's just with a tattoo.
Another commenter answered your "intent" question...but I'm going to answer it too. Intent IS like purpose, but it's also like "will"...as in the noun, not the verb. At least this is how I interpret it in this context...basically, Castiel spent the past year as a being of pure will. I may have just made it more confusing for you, but I can't help but think of the Lord's Prayer - "His will be done on earth as it is in heaven".
Re: Sam and Dean in Hell - you are right. I was actually explaining this to my friend. Dean was in hell-proper - the torture racks. Sam was in a cage with only 3 other people: Lucifer, Michael, and his half-brother Adam. It's a completely different experience, and it obviously messed him up in a completely different way. A cool way to think about it, is if you have two prisoners - one is tortured with physical torture, and the other is tortured with prologued solitary confinement...you would end up with two people with completely different "triggers". The first might flip out ever time they saw a knife, or were tied down, the second might flip out every time they were in an enclosed space.
I really doubt they're going for another apocalypse. I think the angel's will be so busy fighting each other that they won't have time to meddle with Sam and Dean too much...I think Cas will show up as they find more celestial weapons are have to deal with rogue angels mistreating humans or something.
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Date: 2010-10-10 01:32 pm (UTC)About that intent thing – well, you didn’t make it more confusing. I have a nice idea now how I am going to interpret it (putting together what you both said). :) I suppose sometimes it is better to go with the instinctual understanding and not to try to break the sentence in smaller pieces. Because then you can get to the moment where Castiel starts to look like a piece of 3D micro-wave picture in celestial colours.
And now I only have to once again think where do the bodies of the angels go when they are not used to walk the Earth? Especially in the Castiel's case where his host is dead? Is there some kind of a dressing room [similar to the Heavens Green room] where the bodies are hanging around while they are not being used?
Thanks! That idea about the 2 prisoners is really great, and it applies to this situation very well. Only it is strange to think about S&D having triggers like that, since they don’ t have them. But it explains the situation very well.
One Apocalypse in 6 years is enough.. :)
I think the angel's will be so busy fighting each other that they won't have time to meddle with Sam and Dean too much
I hope that you are right on this part, that the Heaven wont be bothering them too much. But on the other part – that sounds too much like some kind of a game – „collect all these things” or „don’t let the bad guys have them”, where they learn about some Quest Item, and then they have to either get it or guard it.
But I suppose it really doesn’t matter what is the big endgame of the season. It will be great anyway, right?
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Date: 2010-10-10 07:42 pm (UTC)Yeah, Sam and Dean don't have triggers...but it was the only example I could think of to show how two people would internalize an experience different. :P S&D ARE messed up though, both of them. Sam told Dean in S5 (while he was high) that Dean's been half-crazy since he got back from hell...and Sam is either 3/4's crazy or full on crazy at the moment.
where they learn about some Quest Item, and then they have to either get it or guard it.
Hahaha, I doubt it'll be like a directed "gotta catch them all" Pokemon search. I sort of just meant that Sam and Dean would continue to investigate odd things, but occasionally those odd things would be caused by the angelic civil war somehow, and they'd have to get Cas down to help them sort out the situation (and to help his side win).
But yes, no matter what they do, I have a feeling I'll enjoy it :)
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Date: 2010-10-11 02:58 pm (UTC)Wait, I just had a thought - what happened with Raphaels body? In Season 5 he left it on Earth. I think I remember that there was all that thing with trying to get Raphael down to Earth to his body? So maybe it's just poor Jimmy who was left hanging around.. somewhere.. In some freezer or meat-locker. Or maybe since Jimmy couldn't go back to his family, he was also left in a catatonic state as John Doe in some hospital?
I didn't mean to imply that they dont have triggers or that they are sane. And about being a headcase - not only Sam said so about Dean, but he himself also admitted. And it really was a great example :)
Okay, that's freaky. This is the second time when in the last few days I have heard/read someone using Pokemons together with Supernatural. At least you didn't mention Digimons and Yu-gi-oh :)
For a moment you confused me with the part about helping Castiel's side to win. I almost wanted to ask if you are sure that Heaven is the right side.. but now - right. There are 2 sides of Heaven. There are way too many sides on SPN :D
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Date: 2010-10-11 03:52 pm (UTC)Haha, yeah...it becomes less a question of "sides" and more a question of "support the people we like" ;)
I don't know anything about digimons and yu-gi-oh...and really the only thing I know about pokemon is the basic idea and the catchphrase :P
Because Raphael is an archangel (who either isn't as powerful, or isn't as nice as Michael), his meat-suit is brain damaged when he's done with it. Jimmy is luckier, because Castiel is less powerful...so, if Castiel did vacate the body and left it conscious (as opposed to in some artificial coma), and IF Jimmy is still alive (which I think he might be), then Jimmy would be fine. That being said, when Jimmy said yes for the second time to Castiel, Castiel warned him that it could be millennium until Jimmy got control of his own body again. Therefore, I think there's something angels can do to bodies to keep them "on hold" while they're traveling around as wavelengths of celestial intent. Maybe it's a scenario like The Beautiful Room, where they are able to put the bodies to sleep and leave them someplace on earth that only angels can access?
I admit, the meat-suit locker/freezer is a pretty horrific idea...but then, this IS Supernatural :P
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Date: 2010-10-11 07:13 pm (UTC)Having seen parts of both x-mons I have to say that imho Digimons were better. There was a bigger plot in those series and the x-mons were cuter/scarier, and kids there - more interesting. On Yu-gi-oh I can say that you haven't lost anything by not knowing it.
About Jimmy/Castiel mind&body status and whereabouts - well after so many IFs you have written there, yeah, if all those things would be true, then I would have to agree with you that Jimmy might one day regain full awareness and control of his body.
Putting bodies to sleep for me too much is connected with all those movies about space traveling. Where they shelve the travelers and put them to instant sleep [e.g. Fifth Element and many others] So it sounds funny.
Thank you. There went the nice idea of the bodies hanging on meat hooks [I think I just better like the bloody version not the Sleeping Beauty]. But I suppose that's too much like Hell. Oh well - as you said - this IS Supernatural, and Heaven is a lot like Hell. :)
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Date: 2010-10-12 01:56 pm (UTC)Personally, I like to think Jimmy's alive and that angels have some way of storing their vessels as energy rather than as matter (think mid-way though a star trek transport beam, or the result of Einstein's E=mc^2 equation) allowing them to simply pull the pieces back together when they need it. I'm basing this off of the fact that Anna came back as herself, and when you banish angels the body leaves too (and they come back in the same body) but when you kill angels, the poor vessel dies and leaves the body behind.
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Date: 2010-10-12 04:12 pm (UTC)I like your version of what happens to the vessels! That's far less horrific and morbid than a meat-suit locker. Haha :P
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Date: 2010-10-12 08:50 pm (UTC)However, I don' t think that on this show it is very important which is the truth. Your status [Alive or Dead] doesn't mean anything.
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Date: 2010-10-12 08:46 pm (UTC)Sorry, your theory about the meatsuits sounds good, but I like the gory version better XD.
[..]but when you kill angels, the poor vessel dies and leaves the body behind. Hmm.. the bits of the blown up Castiel counts as the remains of the body? Brain matter, blood? He still came back in the Jimmy body.
Okay, now I can provide the counterargument myself - the God or some powerfull being brought him back and put his meatsuit together. [I think I can carry both sides of the discussion.] But still - how many times then Jimmy has died? And did That Powerfull Being revived him every time? Poor Jimmy then.
Sadly I don't know the theory behind the workings of Star Trek transport beam - I can only imagine it by how it looked in action. But the idea sounds okay. That all around us are little pieces of angels [or the bodies they use to walk the earth] :)
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Date: 2010-10-12 09:42 pm (UTC)But were the random bits of Jimmy still where he left them??? Or, were there enough bits of Jimmy around for complete combustion or did some of it dematerialize (we already know angels can heal mortal wounds to their vessels)? (I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing this one)
Here's where it gets tricky though, when a demon possess someone, all they need is some bones organs and skin, they can walk around in anyone (dead or alive). Hence, for the most part, the person hangs out in the subconscious perceiving everything as dreams if they perceive anything at all. That is unless they are "awake" as John was in YED in which case it's more like a case of bad hypnotism (not fun I can attest from personal experience) in which you know what's happening but have no control. (Except that in bad hypnotism it's more like your body won't get up from this stupid chair on the stupid stage, but I digress)
Compare with an angel which is FAR more powerful and which Jimmy described as being "chained to a comet". Basically you have no control, but couldn't comprehend ever having control. Control just doesn't enter the equation. However, angels need more than just your physical body. (Which is why they need permission) So my guess is that they tap into your consciousness, they need compatibility of soul. There is some sort of metaphysical relationship between an angel and his/her vessel. If Lucifer needed Sam to be angry, then Luci couldn't have inhabited a dead Samsuit. Similarly then, Castiel couldn't have inhabited just anybody, and needed something from Jimmy's consciousness, so he also couldn't have inhabited a dead Jimmysuit. This also explains why he told Jimmy that it would be for "millenia". Otherwise Jimmy could have just died of natural causes leaving Cas to wander around in uncontested body. This leaves us with the implication that if God brought Castiel back in Jimmy's body, God must have brought Jimmy back as well.
I'm not sure if the Star Trek analogy is entirely right with what I wanted to say, but I was going for a quantum relativity explanation and Star Trek makes it more fun. :) The gory version is kind of fun too, it makes me think there's some kind of angel coat check person who goes around dusting the meatsuits every so often.
Also: yes, poor Jimmy indeed.
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Date: 2010-10-13 06:18 pm (UTC)On to the angel&demon comparison:
Control just doesn't enter the equation. Has that been stated on the show? Because technically it IS the same with demon possessions and “normal” people wont ever have a chance at control. But the fact remains – that there are cannon cases where people could do that. And well – we don’t know enough angels, and almost every angel either was all the time in the human body, or left the body dead. Jimmy seems to be the only one who at least for a year was alive [and after Castiel left was still sane] while being connected to an angel. So what I am trying to get to – is that there might be some really special human beings who could try to fight for a control even having an angel in his body.
Oh, and of course – Sam/Lucifer. Lucifer was enough of an angel to have the same rules about getting inside a meatsuit. And he is one of the most powerful angels, but still Sam managed to gain control.
Therefore there must be humans who can get control over those who are possessing them be it an angel or a demon.
~
So, maybe Castiel after everything saved just a bit of Jimmy to keep the connection and the body going on. Like with those fancy car chips/keys. Where that little “microchip” must be in the car or the car wont go anywhere. Maybe then god only restored that “chip” part of Jimmy?
~
some kind of angel coat check person who goes around dusting the meatsuits every so often
:D that’s a nice image.
-Hey, what’s your job?
-I am responsible for human bodies. I have to dust them. Keep them nice and clean and ready for use.
~
As for Hells_half_acre’s text about ways to think about possession – I think I have seen this comparison in some other places. Okay, maybe not written exactly like that [with dub and non-con], but close enough about how it’s a lot like an assault. And if the possessor invades your mind and draws from your memories.. But yeah, as you said - someone get's screwed [in every way possible. Because Angels don't really explain what you are getting into, at least in the first time, and demons - just don't ask.]
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Date: 2010-10-14 04:57 am (UTC)Actually I was just trying to continue the gory for as long as possible.
Jimmy seems to be the only one who at least for a year was alive [and after Castiel left was still sane] while being connected to an angel.
Jimmy is the only one we ever see after a (regular class) angel has left the person. Raphael was an archangel, so as a far more powerful being, he left his vessel far more effed up. However, John was possessed by Michael, an even more powerful angel, with no (that we know of) negative side effects, so maybe Raphael's just a dick. Every other post-angel we see is a body after the angel (and hence the vessel at the same time) has been killed.
While there are cases of people fighting off demon possession and retaking control, retaking control from angel possession is completely unprecedented, which is why Cas thought Sam's plan wouldn't work. Plus we don't tend to see angels jumping around from vessel to vessel, so we can probably assume the bloodline theory (as Michael mentioned to Dean), that only certain people can provide a vessel to certain angels (which is also why Cas could possess Jimmy's daughter). That lends itself to the importance of the living vessel, as well as suggesting that there are no "normal" people in angel possession. Sam is just extra special... somehow?
To expand on hells_half_acre's theory, demon possession and angel possession are different from each other in the way that rape and consensual sex are different from each other in more than just permission. At the very least, with the latter you're less likely to end up with an STI. (But you can still have consensual sex and have no idea what you're getting into)
Also, because we only ever meet one vessel, we can't assume that all angel vessels get screwed over. Well, I guess they do, but we can't assume they're all told as little as Jimmy. Lucifer and Michael were at least honest: "I need to wear you so I can fight my brother in the Apocalyptic Battle Royale. Oh, and you might die in the process. Or your brother will." Maybe Cas was just unclear because he didn't realize how clear he needed to be? (His "people skills" being "rusty" and all)
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Date: 2010-10-14 09:03 pm (UTC)Well for the theory about Raphael being a dick – either that [and he seems to be capable of being that] or just maybe Michael is so much more powerfull, that he can put the body back together. OR Johns bloodline is much cooler than the one for that poor guy who ended up with Raphael. [Pure speculation now, since we do not have enough of evidence: Lucifer had more than one vessel option – Nick was weaker, but Sam was what he really needed. Maybe Raphael also had a second option, but that guy didn’t agree to share his meat.And in the end Micheal took a different body.. So probably the showdown could have happened between Lucifer-in-Nick and Michael-in-Adam. So I think I am meaning to say that even if they do not “jump” from one to another they still have second options, they still have those really special people [Sam] and just special people [Nick] . ]
I am not sure if until John managed to break the control of the demon it was known to be possible.. I somehow have gotten the feeling that it is also a rare/unheard thing. And our guys just managed to prove in earlier seasons that it is possible. Now they know, that a special person can also beat the angel.
Okay, I agree that there are no “normal” people who are possessed by an angel. And Sam definitely is extra special.
. At the very least, with the latter you're less likely to end up with an STI. (But you can still have consensual sex and have no idea what you're getting into)
Yeah, from a demon possession you literally can end up with STD, but the angels might not go sleeping around while in your body :D But who knows with the future Castiel..
Maybe Cas was just unclear because he didn't realize how clear he needed to be?
And maybe he himself didn’t know how much he will need from that body, since in that time the angels hadn’t walked the earth for many, many years.
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Date: 2010-10-14 09:26 pm (UTC)I know it's all pure speculation though. Personally, I always just assumed that Michael was so powerful that he could repair his vessels when he was done with them...but that the other angels couldn't. Interestingly enough, Castiel didn't know this in 5x03, because he told Dean that he'd end up worse than Raphael's vessel if Michael used him. Again, I guess that speaks to the idea that after millenia of not being on earth, Castiel didn't really know that much about how it might pan out.
Anyway, just wanted to say: Interesting thoughts!
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Date: 2010-10-12 09:48 pm (UTC)So Jimmy might be more dead than alive, that some small part of him is still with his body.. Or else it's too much like a demon possesion, and that is not nice.
I always think of it in terms of sexual-assault (which, agreed, is not nice, but this is the analogy that works for me...) Demon possession = non-con, and angel-possession = dub-con. Either way, someone is getting screwed. One is just more morally ambiguous than the other.
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Date: 2010-10-09 02:50 pm (UTC)Given that they contrasted it with Dean's dream, I think what they were going for was more "something's wrong with Sam." I mean, after all, looking like that, it's not like he wouldn't have volunteers (especially after doing sit ups, hah.) So I what I took away from it is that even a one-night stand would be too much of a personal connection. He'd rather have the business transaction.
>>"Dean and I share a special bond....I wasn't going to say anything"
That line was awesome. It was all in the delivery. I cracked up at 'I wasn't going to say anything'. And yes, definitely fan service. If shirtless!dean and shirtless!sam wasn't enough to prove it, this line clinched it. Not that I'm complaining. Not at all.
It cracked me up that the brother's name was Aaron.
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Date: 2010-10-09 08:12 pm (UTC)Ah, I can't believe I didn't think of that. You are completely right...not only does using prostitutes avoid personal connection, you also don't really have to talk to them. One night stands, you have to woo at least enough to get them into bed...smile at them, come across as a person.
Now, that being said...I'm surprised Sam is bothering with sex at all given his current state...but hey, I guess you have to "clean the pipes" somehow...might as well get someone else to do some of the work for a change.
Why is it funny that the brother's name is Aaron? Am I missing something?
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Date: 2010-10-10 12:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 12:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 06:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 03:18 pm (UTC)as for Sam and a hooker, my friend Ben pointed this out - in another series that we both read there's a character who turns to hookers to satisfy a need without the attachment, so Ben is figuring that's what Sam did. (oh, i really should post that too.)
and my thought on Castiel showing up at just that moment was maybe because he was interested in the Staff of Moses, and new Dean and Sam could help. since the sigils made them invisible, Raloria thought that maybe Sam's could have been "erased" when he was in Hell.
i liked the wendigo mask too. =)
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Date: 2010-10-09 08:15 pm (UTC)And yes, I think you are right about Sam avoiding personal attachment/interaction...now that I've thought about it, it makes sense for RoboSam not to want to put the effort into wooing some bargirl.
:)
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Date: 2010-10-10 03:35 am (UTC)good point there, yeah.
yep. RoboSam. heh.
=)
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Date: 2010-10-10 03:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 03:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 05:27 pm (UTC)As for the sigils, I've been wondering about that one too. Either it's because Dean prayed directly to Cas, but if so, then why didn't Cas tell them they could do that back in s5, or and this is my guess. Cas erased Dean's carvings in Swan Song when he was healing his injuries. Since the carvings were technically an injury. And Sam's carvings got erased when Sam was ressurected, cause the person/thing doing so, wanted to be able to find him or something like that.
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Date: 2010-10-09 08:18 pm (UTC)I don't think their rib-carvings were erased. I think Castiel couldn't come to them in S5 when they prayed because he was cut off from heaven - he didn't hear prayers anymore. Now it's different. Now, that being said, we'll really just have to wait and see...if Castiel shows up in a future episode without being called, then we'll know that the rib-carvings are gone.
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Date: 2010-10-10 12:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 01:02 am (UTC)I think they cast every bit part on the show with the thought in mind that if they don't die in that episode, they might be recurring.
I loved his voice - thought he had it down perfectly, so I'll be interested to see who they'll get next.