Question for those interested in my Merlin/SPN fic...

[hells_half_acre]

As some of you know, I'm writing a Merlin/Supernatural crossover at the moment. It's going to be roughly 20-24k words... maybe longer. It takes place in the Merlin universe. 

Now, my question to you is: Should I change Merlin canon???

I only ask, because I started writing this fic before Merlin ended. And...well... I hated the end of Merlin. I thought it was bad writing (not so much the dialogue and the characters, but rather the plot of the final season.) So, on the one hand, I could change all that... or at least, leave it ambiguous enough that the reader could imagine that everything changed. On the other hand, I usually stick with canon in these crossovers and that's what orders them and keeps them believable and satisfying (in my opinion.) But if the canon isn't satisfying....then, maybe I should change it?

It'd mean rewriting a little of what I've done already, but not actually that much when it comes right down to it. The major changes would be to the bit that I haven't written yet anyway.

(I also still have to decide where in Supernatural's timeline Sam and Dean are going to be.)

Anyway, any thoughts would be appreciated.

PS: I know I've been writing a lot slower these days than I used to in the past... but in the past I was under- and unemployed, and these days I'm actually working full time. So, I'm finding it a bit more difficult to find time to write. I know I just have to make a better routine of it though, so I'm working on that. I haven't been working on the poor novel at all, even though I think I have a good strategy for fixing at least some of the problems. What I should really do is stop reading other peoples fanfiction. I spend far too much time doing that, I suppose. I'll shut-up now.

Comments

[afastmachine.livejournal.com]

I'll be no help, I'm afraid, except to agree that Merlin's last season was less than fulfilling. I haven't seen the last two episodes, but despite tumblr's love of it, I just can't find it in myself to be interested. I used to really love the show, but really it's gone downhill a lot.
/rant

Would it be possible to make in ambiguous in a way that you could find satisfying from a canon purist way while also giving a little bit of leeway for people to see what they want? And while you're at it, maybe the sun, moon and stars for me? LOL.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hahaha, I think I'll get working on that sun, moon, and stars...sounds easier. ;)

But yeah, I suppose that would be the dream - would be to leave it so open ended that people who actually liked the direction of the last season would still be happy. I'm just not sure I can pull it off, and still have it also believable that perhaps everything changed and the last season was avoided. :P

Don't watch the last two episodes. To tell you the truth, I was FINE with the season until the last two episodes - and then I hated everything and everyone. So, if you already thought the season was going downhill, then just avoid the last two episodes like the plague. Pretend the series ended after S4. It'd be just as satisfying.

[cordelia-gray.livejournal.com]

Oh man, that last season of Merlin was so deeply disappointing. I think personally I'd be interested in other versions of the story, because the one we got was so little to my taste. Changing up canon in a mashup like that does feel risky, but maybe it would be worth it?

I think the issue with Merlin is that it seemed all along like we were being promised an endgame which was never delivered. It was a bait-and-switch. Cherrypicking what one likes out of a canon always feels like cheating to me, but telling a version of the story which delivers on the initial offer seems different, somehow.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

That's what I'm thinking too. The Merlin writers forgot what story they were actually telling when they went in to write S5... so really, all I want to do is tell the story we should have gotten.

Now, as you say, whether I should do that in a crossover or not is another matter. Maybe what I really want to do is finish this crossover as it is and then write a Merlin fix-it S5... whether I'm up for that though is another issue altogether.

[afastmachine.livejournal.com]

I've seen everywhere how apparently it was a huge love letter to Merlin/Arthur and yet everyone essentially still died and that seems like the whole point of the show instantly is negated. But yeah, I have no interest in watching a trainwreck lol and I know overall we have similar opinions on Merlin. Though honestly I like to pretend that the real characters died after S2 and were replaced with odd clones from then onwards. :P

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

LOL sounds legit.

Yeah, you are completely correct, even having never seen it. It completely negated the entire premise of the show - it was a TOTAL trainwreck. Now, within the twisted metal and mutilated corpse of that train, there happened to be some very fine acting done by Bradley and Colin, but much like the rest of the show, it wasn't enough to untwist that metal and put the train back on the rails.

Seriously, as much as I loved watching Bradley and Colin get up to antics every year, I think Bradley (and presumably Colin) made a wise career move when he told the producers that he was not signing for a S6.

The problem with Merlin was that it was a great original premise and fantastic actors, but the writers just never delivered on ANYTHING. I always feel like launching into that Adele song - WE COULD HAVE HAD IT ALLLLLL... :P

[afastmachine.livejournal.com]

That's EXACTLY the problem I've always had with Merlin. They always had such great potential, especially with the chance to go darker in S3, but they wasted it all because they didn't want to commit to anything. *sigh* And I knew they didn't have enough momentum to give the finale what it needed to make it good, so that was just an educated guess lol.

I really do wish there were more shows that were willing to take a chance and commit to it. I may have really not liked the way Primeval's timelines changed, but at least once they did something they followed it all the way to the end, and at least that made it good...that's always my go-to thought when people go "well, but it was a kid's show, they didn't want to over-complicate it...".

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

I'd be fine with them keeping it stupid and light and not over-complicated if they remembered what story they were supposed to be telling! That's what got me about it. I mean, YES, there was relatively no progression - but then when there finally was, they went completely off the rails and told a different story than we were promised.

So, yeah, they couldn't even commit to their own freakin' story. Ugh, show. And the thing is there was AMPLE opportunity to at least follow through with a conclusion to their premise. "Merlin has to protect Arthur so that he can unite and restore magic to Albion." So, end of S4, well on his way to uniting Albion, has his wife, his knights... ALL S5 had to do was have a magic reveal and have Arthur lift the ban on magic, and bammo, Albion, Magic, Merlin is accepted for who he is, and presto - satisfying ending. It WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN HARD.

Ugh... anyway, at this point I'm just rambling. But Merlin S5 made me so damn mad. There was no reason to go all the way to Camlann. They were supposed to be telling a story about how Arthur BECAME great, not how Arthur died (somehow without ever becoming great, because they fuckin' forgot to tell that story.)

So mad.

[liliaeth]

Well considering that you already change Merlin canon by having the Winchesters show up, I don't see no problem in going further with that. Since their presence should have some effect on what the Merlin characters end up doing afterwards.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Well, not exactly - you know how I write crossovers. I figured out a way to do it where Merlin canon doesn't actually have to change at all.

But, you have a point anyway, I could change things. After all, Merlin and Supernatural have two opposing messages - Supernatural believes in free will, whereas Merlin preaches only destiny.

[liliaeth]

See the thing is, yes events could still happen the same way, but I would find it more meaningful, if you took the events and chars as we see them in canon, and then have the winchesters effect one or two things that results in the future events changing. That way you'd still be sticking to canon and show how 'destiny' can be averted.

Like you said, the Winchesters being all about free will, maybe Dean could make Merlin realize that Mordred doesn't have to betray Arthur, if only he gave him the chance and the support that Mordred needs. Well that and being honest about his magic because of something that happens within the story, which instantly would have an effect on what Mordred does because of the laws against magic.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

True. And it also might solve one of my other problems with the fic, in that right now I'm mainly just using Dean and Sam as an Outsider POV and nothing more... so, it's sort of like Dean and Sam are watching Merlin, but the story isn't affected by them being there as much as it should be (or Sam and Dean aren't affected by being there.) It's hard to explain. I mean, I guess as it stands right now, I'm only exploring the dynamics of Merlin and not the dynamics of Sam and Dean....

...so, yeah... perhaps you are right, diverting destiny would be bringing an element of Supernatural to the crossover rather than just having it a Merlin story that Sam and Dean happen to be present for.

[liliaeth]

Yep, I love outsider pov, don't get me wrong. But there has to be a reason for both fandoms to be there. If one of the fandoms could easily be removed without changing the story, then really there's no point for it to be a crossover in the first place.

In this case, the point with the Winchesters is that they change events just by being around. They are pretty much a catalyst for change. That's one of their strengths as characters. But it means that if you involve them in a storyline, that things would change from how they would happen without them.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes, I think you are right.

So, now the question is: Do I make it ambiguous or explicit? Do I write the change, or do I just imply that it happens after this particular story ends?

[liliaeth]

well I don't know your writing habits, but for me it works best to just go with the flow of the story. See how it works out as your writing it, let the story carry you. If it feels more natural to show the change, do that, if it doesn't, then keep it ambiguous.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... perhaps you are right once again. I think part of the problem is that if I want to make it explicit, then I have to change what I've already written...possibly? Maybe not.

I think I need to go to bed. My brain is going in loops. Thanks for talking it out with me! I definitely agree that I've gotta have the Winchesters affect the course of Merlin in SOME way, so yeah... thanks!

[liliaeth]

well another benefit of finishing a story before posting it... you can always go back and change bits in earlier parts to better fit your ending :-)

[liliaeth]

It's one of the main reasons why s3 of the UK Being Human was so strong. They took the events of s2, and instead of ignoring them, or pushing them aside, they took full opportunity of them and then once again dealt with the consequences. I still say that what they did with Mitchell at the end of that season was the best possible ending any vampire character could have ever gotten dealing with that storyline. And I don't think there's many US shows that would have been that brave with it.

[katsheswims.livejournal.com]

I'd be fine with you changing Merlin canon. It's your story, and whatever you need to change will only make it better I'm sure.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. :)

[afastmachine.livejournal.com]

I stopped watching in S3, but I agree, it was very strong and I'm glad they followed through on the wolf-shaped bullet. One thing I appreciate about shows like that is that they're not afraid to follow-through with what they set up, even if it kills characters in the end. I can respect it even if I don't always like it, lol.

[yalumesse]

What's best for the story? How much of an effect would it have on the content of your crossover? Would you still like the story if you didn't change canon? Me, I tend to stick to canon wherever possible, but it's your story and if it you don't like where it's going to have to go if you stick with Merlin canon, then it'll be no fun to write. Even if it's ignorable, you have to like your own story. If it's not going to have a huge impact and it wouldn't bother you lots, I'd say stick with Merlin's canon just so you don't have to do lots of explaining - then again, you say you can leave it ambiguous. That might be the best choice. Makes everyone happy.

Funny thing? I was deeply disappointed in season five until the last three episodes. I loved those.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Crazyness! We're like Merlin opposites :P

I think the problem is that if I leave it as it is, then in my mind, I know that the Merlin and Arthur that I just wrote are going to end up in those last three episodes of S5... and that makes me sad.

So, yes, I think in order to make myself happy, I need to change it a little - or at least leave it open to interpretation so that it COULD change.

I think I'll probably just have to write the second half and see how ambiguous I can make it... and then decide if it needs to be more explicit to be good/satisfying for just me. Hopefully though, ambiguous will work and everyone can be happy.

[yalumesse]

But opposites at least make for interesting conversation. When everyone agrees it gets boring.

Ambiguity does seem to be the happiest option :)

[mymuseandi.livejournal.com]

Is it too late to leave an opinion about this?

I think that you should leave it ambiguous. Stick it somewhere in the timeline that you're comfortable with, and leave the readers with an ending that give them hope that Arthur don't have to die and Merlin don't have to push Mordred away, and everyone will leave happily ever after... I mean, obviously it doesn't happen like that in the show, but a reader can dream :)

But again, you have to decide for yourself. This is just my opinion.

I wouldn't think it's a good idea to timeline your story near the end of season 5 though. Taken as a whole, the show after Gwen was turned evil just made me want to scream at the screen and say, YOU'RE WASTING TIME WITH THIS ARC. JUST DO THE MAGIC REVEAL ALREADY. They pace season 5 as though they have 24 episodes to play with and not just 13!

*cough cough* Sorry. Going down the soapbox now.

What I should really do is stop reading other peoples fanfiction. I spend far too much time doing that, I suppose.

And I think I should stop reading fanfiction and start writing too! LOL I can't wait to see what you're going to do with your story!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

It's not too late to have an opinion unless I post the thing... and even then you can have an opinion! ;)

Yes, I think you're right. I originally intended to set it in the 3 year gap between S4 and S5 of Merlin, and I think I'll still do that. If I wanted to make the canon diverting explicit, then I'd set it in the early days of S5, but if I want to make it ambiguous, I think I'm better off in that 3 year gap - where maybe S5 happens and maybe it doesn't. (In my mind it won't).

The latter half of S5 was pretty dumb. I don't know what they would have done if the producers had gotten the S6 that they wanted (my understanding is that it wasn't actually the BBC that decided to "cancel" the show, it was actually the actors (or at least Bradley) who refused to sign on for a S6 - and I don't blame him. There was no where else for the story to go besides a magic reveal, and they should have done it WELL before the goddamn final episode, ESPECIALLY if the final episode was going to be Camlann (which again, I don't think it should have been, because that wasn't the story they were supposed to be telling.)

Anyway, yes, off the soapbox. (I have a no complaining about Supernatural rule on this journal - but it seems Merlin is fair game :P )

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Hey there
Since I hated the end, I'd be pretty ok if you veered a little off script ;-)

I never was that much into Merlin, just recently watched the last season because ...of reasons, and well, dammit, that was fine acting but where was the greatness of Camelot that was supposed to have come?

As you said: they forgot to tell that story. Might be because of the actor saying "naa, not any more", but uh... yeah.


So, as an interested but not invested watcher: any recommendations what episodes I should watch if I wanted to enjoy that show? And forget about Arthur dying, dammit!

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

This is the thing though, I'm sure they KNEW that it was going to be their final season before they started writing/filming it - because they set up that Arthur is going to die right at the beginning. So, they COULD have written an awesome season. Instead the writers just proved how "not good" they were by forgetting the story they were meant to tell.

Which is why I don't blame the actors for saying no to new seasons, because they seriously deserve better writing for their talents.

ANYWAY... episodes that are great to watch:

The first episode, 1x04, 1x07 gets referenced A LOT in fanfic, 1x10, 1x11, 1x13.

I'll tell you more in a few hours... I've gotta go catch a bus and donate my fasting blood to a scientific study (and then have breakfast.)

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Okay, more Merlin episodes for you to check out...

2x02 is pretty good if you like Arthur/Gwen. 2x04, likewise, but there's some good Arthur/Merlin friendship stuff in it too. 2x05-2x06 are pretty funny. 2x08 is fantastic when it comes to Bradley's acting. A lot of people like 2x09, but personally, I found it somewhat uncomfortable. 2x12 is really good, and sets up the foundation for how Merlin completely blows it with Morgana... and then you're going to want to watch 2x13 too.

3x04 introduces Gwaine, who is awesome - and you'll want to know who he is, because he appears again in 3x08, which is the next episode I'd recommend.

If you're a Arthur/Gwen fan - 3x10. If you like the psychological impact of Merlin's secrets, then 3x11.

And then the two part finale 3x12-3x13.

You'll also want to watch the two part premiere 4x01 and 4x02. Another good Bradley episodes is 4x03. 4x06 is excellent. 4x07 is pretty good too. 4x08 has a great premise, and it's very popular when it comes to episode-tags in fanfic. 4x10 is an episode where there is ACTUAL CHARACTER GROWTH! (Very rare on Merlin, which is part of the reason the writing was subpar.)

Finally, there's the finale of 4x12-4x13 (Technically, you'll have wanted to see 4x09 and 4x11 to understand the set up, but I think you'd probably be able to get the gist of it.)

Now, S5, I had a LOT Of problems with... that being said, there are a couple of good episodes. I liked 5x04 (which was the only time I've ever shipped Merlin with a woman.) And 5x09 is really well acted by Colin Morgan. Other than those two episodes, the season kind of sucks... mainly just because it's tainted by the horrible ending. (In my opinion, anyway.)

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

Oh hey, thank you!

That's really cool of you, I'll go check them out. I really liked the acting in the show, I have to say, so that'd be my focus. Also, since the first times I watched them with German translation (we do that, we translate everything to German instead of just learning English... not sure if that's smart or stupid), any acting gets better when they lose the childish stupid giggle-voices! ;-)


Which is why I don't blame the actors for saying no to new seasons, because they seriously deserve better writing for their talents.

No, I don't either. I think they are really good, and I hope they get some better - less Playmobil-looking - opportunities soon. It's what I would say to someone: they had this really good chance of making a good show, but they always fell short and never reached that point - by just ignoring the possibilities that were there.

So much chance for more darkness - I don't know what you thought of her, but Morgana was pretty awesome as a character, more chances to explore the moral problems that the people encountered. I'm curious, but I can't say I'll miss it, now that it's done.

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Also, since the first times I watched them with German translation (we do that, we translate everything to German instead of just learning English... not sure if that's smart or stupid), any acting gets better when they lose the childish stupid giggle-voices! ;-)

Haha, I know. I lived in Germany briefly. It's the same when Japanese animated series come here. I'd much prefer them to keep the original Japanese and just put subtitles - because the English voices are too cartoony/annoying. I think they've gotten a bit better about it, but I still prefer to hear the original voices.

So much chance for more darkness - I don't know what you thought of her, but Morgana was pretty awesome as a character, more chances to explore the moral problems that the people encountered. I'm curious, but I can't say I'll miss it, now that it's done.

I think it's not even so much about "darkness" but about authentic human emotional follow through and authentic character growth - Merlin just didn't have any.

I actually have a huge problem with Morgana's character. I think she had the POTENTIAL to be amazing, but they turned her into a two dimensional insane villain, rather than someone whose actions reflected their life experience. To me, Uther was the only great villain on the show, because he was the only one who (at least in the beginning) was more morally grey... but even he, when they brought him back briefly in S5, was stripped of everything that made him compelling.

So, yeah, I'm not saying Morgana is a bad character. I'm just saying that in my opinion, her potential was squandered.

[marlowe78.livejournal.com]

I think she had the POTENTIAL to be amazing, but they turned her into a two dimensional insane villain, rather than someone whose actions reflected their life experience.

Ah, yes. I meant more the actress than how they wrote it, and I liked the possibility for the character that was there but never got really explored. I felt bad for her, and I think the actress was really good in conveying the evil madness that resulted in her fate.

But as you said, and as I said: not enough.

I also think she was really beautiful and maybe I am a little less "completely straight" because I think she's really sexy in her madness, and it might impact on my judgement of her acting :-D

[hells-half-acre.livejournal.com]

Haha, oh, I completely agree. Katie McGrath is very beautiful and I think she did her absolute best with what she was given... so much so that she kept giving me hope that they were going to write her better stuff. :P